Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Hammer and anvil

  1. #1
    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Looking for the red blob of nothingness
    Posts
    6,344

    Default Hammer and anvil

    I was just watching a documentary on the battle of Cynosephalae it mentioned the cavalry on both sides meeting just after the start of the battle and they weren't mentioned again. I have noticed this crops up quite often in descriptions of ancient battles, the cavalry fighting each other until one drives the other off the field but the winning cavalry are always noted as chasing after the routing enemy rather than flanking enemy infantry. How common were Alexander style hammer and anvil tactics in ancient warfare?
    Last edited by johnhughthom; 03-21-2008 at 06:15.

  2. #2
    Member Member quackingduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    97

    Default Re: Hammer and anvil

    i would guess this must have been pretty common, like isnt your infantry holding down the enemy infantry while ur cavlary flanks the most basic/common stategy ever?? idk, unlike half the people on this forrum im not some genius proffessor/student
    Thank you EB team

  3. #3
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Who cares
    Posts
    6,195

    Default Re: Hammer and anvil

    well, that depends on how you define "hammer and anvil". if you go by "infantry hold while cavalry smash", then it was quite common, even near-universal: Cannae is one such battle (as well as a classic double envelopement); the infantry held (and buckeled into a cresent shape), the cavalry struck the roman rear. It's worth noting the battles in the wars of the Diadochoi; they are classic cases too+Alexander the III's battles. in other words, "hammer and anvil" is a style of warfare, not a particular tactic, and as such was quite common in the mediterranean. more knowledgeble people may know more. I'd agree with quacking duck.
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 03-21-2008 at 07:06.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

    tired of ridiculous trouble with walking animations? then you need my brand newmotion capture for the common man!

    "We have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if we put the belonging to, in the I don't know what, all gas lines will explode " -alBernameg

  4. #4
    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Looking for the red blob of nothingness
    Posts
    6,344

    Default Re: Hammer and anvil

    I myself had always been under the impression that it was very common for the infantry to hold down other infantry while the cavalry smashes from behind, but most of the accounts I have read of ancient battles simply have cavalry vs cavalry while the infantry has a seperate encounter. Perhaps it's just coincidence and I haven't read enough to form a true judgement.

  5. #5
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Where on this beige, brown, and olive-drab everything will stick, sting, bite, and/or eat you; most rickety-tick.
    Posts
    6,160

    Default Re: Hammer and anvil

    There are a large number of mitigating factors in play here. For example, how open a given battlefield was and was the Opofor general/king in the mounded formation that was routed. Do you have a particular battle in mind?
    Last edited by cmacq; 03-21-2008 at 11:21.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Hammer and anvil

    Quite a few battles were decided by the success of the flanking cavalry. The infantry banged their heads against the enemies, trying to break the enemy formations.

    However, the decisive moments usually were when the enemy cavalry was defeated, then the cavalry could swing around and if the enemy infantry had not started their rout, the sudden charge in the back of enemy cavalry often broke the spirit of most infantry.
    Likstrandens ormar som spyr blod och etter, Ni som blint trampar Draugs harg
    På knä I Eljudne mottag död mans dom, Mot död och helsvite, ert öde och pinoplats

  7. #7
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Hammer and anvil

    Hammer and Anvil was a fairly common strategy BUT it often failed because the cavalry were not diciplined enough to weel and charge the enemy infantry. That was one reason Alexander (and Parmenion) personally controlled the wing cavalry because they required a tighter hand on the reins, so to speak, than the infantry.

    The other problem is that you do have to decisively defeat the enemy cavalry lest they reform and pin you against the enemy infantry.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  8. #8
    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Looking for the red blob of nothingness
    Posts
    6,344

    Default Re: Hammer and anvil

    As an example most accounts of Caesar's battles that I have read have the infantry and the cavalry engaging seperately and a few mention the enemy cavalry routing and Caesars just chasing them off the field not returning to take further part in the main encounter. As I mentioned earlier a documentary on the battle of Cynosphalae was what brought it into my head, although the fact that was on a hill was probably a factor and the cavalry battle may well have not been decided when Philips phalanxes quit(it wasn't a great documentary tbh). It just struck me during the program that, although I am aware of the obvious examples like Alexander and Cannae, it seems more often than not when I read or watch a program about an ancient battle cavalry is rarely a decisive force.
    Then again I have read little regarding the Diadochi, most of it would be Roman Republic and Greek history.

  9. #9
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Hammer and anvil

    Ah, well the Romans didn't use the hammer and anvil until MUCH later and the Greeks never got the hang of combined arms fighting. Philip II is credited with inventing close-formation hard-charging cavalry, in the West at least. Certainly Darius' cavalry lacked the cohesion of Alexander's.

    So, in other words, you've not been reading about the people who were good at it. When it worked it worked, believe me.
    Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 03-21-2008 at 18:54.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  10. #10
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    7,967

    Default Re: Hammer and anvil

    The Romans AFAIK preferred to rely on their heavy infantry to carry the day, partly as they usually flat out didn't have enough cavalry around for decisive actions. Their horse's role tended to be more to block & contain their opposite numbers, thus safeguarding the flanks of the infantry, and chase down routers as the opportunity presented itself - not that they were by any means adverse to carrying out flank attacks whenver possible of course.

    One issue for every cavalry force after it finally managed to disperse its opposite number, however, was that their horses tended to be a bit tired at that point - especially if they'd spent some time chasing after their erstwhile opponents. So before they could turn their attentions to the infantry clash at the center they had to reform and rest their mounts, which just might give the now exposed footsloggers enough time to form a proper closed frontage to deflect them, or even reform into a square...

    'Course, commanders worried about getting flanked by enemy cavalry also often made a point of anchoring their flank(s) on suitable geographical obstacles, and where such were not present and the time allowed, created them by having ditches dug, trees felled to form an abatis, and so on.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO