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Thread: Persian Immortals

  1. #1

    Default Persian Immortals

    Any chance of seeing them in the next version of EB? I've seen one other request for them before, but the request was shot down with the reason being that they were disbanded after Alexander had defeated the Persian Empire.

    However, if I'm not mistaken, the Immortals were brought back several times under several Empires. The third Persian Empire under the Sassanid dynasty and the Eastern Roman Empire had brought back the Immortals.

    Perhaps Hayasdan players can have the option of recruiting the Immortals through the Persian Reforms?
    Last edited by jsadighi; 03-21-2008 at 06:56.

  2. #2
    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    No. Or at least, I sure hope so. Both the Sassanid and ERE are waaaay after EB´s timeframe, and besides, I´m not sure how elite these reborn Immortals actually were.
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  3. #3
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    the Zhayedan (sassanid immprtals) were dammn good-but they were cataphracts, not footsoldiers, like the Anusiya (companians, the persian word for the 5th century BC immortal)
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    Member Member quackingduck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    what did the real immortals actually use for weaponry and armor? im gonna make a crazy assumtion and say that it is not 2 katanas and metal face masks like off 300 :P
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Quote Originally Posted by quackingduck
    what did the real immortals actually use for weaponry and armor? im gonna make a crazy assumtion and say that it is not 2 katanas and metal face masks like off 300 :P
    It was kind of unimpressive...a spear and a wicker shield. I don't know about armor, but I know that much.

  6. #6
    The Scourge of Rome Member Spartan198's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    From what I've read on the Persian Immortals,they wore very light scale mail armor in the form of a tunic that was about as thick as a playing card.
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  7. #7
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    You may want to check the city of the Persi?

    http://itchy-wheels.exploder.org/ima...g2_itemId=1281

    However I believe this was a class of warrior, of which there were several discrete formations each armed with a different set of weapons. Overall, they formed the core of the Persian standing army, which was not that large in itself. One must remember that the Achaemenid Empire was a centralized feudalistic type of government and the vast majority of troops needed for a given campaign were provided by the various vassal states.
    Last edited by cmacq; 03-21-2008 at 09:41.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    If you really want them, there are already some finished units in the Total War center download section. You just have to implement them in the game and make them available for the faction you want.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    i had the impression that they would have had a bow (due to the general eastern love of it) and may have fought have fought in the phalanx formation (again, the east). and true enough, im pretty sure they weren't around in the EB timeframe, since i can't imagine the Seleukids using something as hardcore Persian as immortals; they might rebel against the Hellens and declare independence for a new Persian Empire.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    where is The Persian Cataphract? I am looking forward for his comment on this!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Persian immortals are just archer-spearmen. Maybe the things in EB are not exactly the same things but they would have been more or less identical to those in EB anywway, and served the same purpose.
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  12. #12
    aka Artaserse (the Lone Borg) Member Obelics's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    i think the late pahlavan bodyguards are really enough for everyone who desire a sort of "Immortal" unit... marvelous graphics, hight letal sword, huge charge, tank armoured horse, armour piercing... really no motivation to miss any kind of immortals here...

  13. #13
    Marzbān-ī Jundīshāpūr Member The Persian Cataphract's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Quote Originally Posted by Matinius Brutus
    where is The Persian Cataphract? I am looking forward for his comment on this!
    Salve!

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers
    Persian immortals are just archer-spearmen. Maybe the things in EB are not exactly the same things but they would have been more or less identical to those in EB anywway, and served the same purpose.
    Not true. The Iranian archer-spearmen in EB are levies; The Immortals were professionals who were trained to use the spear both on foot and on horse-back, and to use the bow both on foot and on horse-back. This is verified by recorded accounts of Darius I The Great when he re-tells the days when he was the Royal Spear-bearer or "Arshtībarā" of the King of Kings Cambyses The Great. This is further verified by Herodotus' famed maxim of Achaemenid chivalry where they were "educated in three things only; Archery, equestrian sports and to speak the truth.

    This call for versatility in using spear, bow and horse, is deeply rooted in Medean tradition, which Herodotus calls upon the enigmatic High King of the Medean empire, Cyaxares, or as Kurds and Medieval Persian bard Ferdōwsī call him, Kāy-Khusrō, and Herodotus' claim of said character reforming the Medean army accordingly to the ranks of horsemen, archers and spears. This account is deemed dubious, because Herodotus suggests that the Medeans were the first in bringing such organization (Which is refuted by Assyrian military depictions); The Medeans probably were aware of the advantages of a proper military order prior to the ascendancy of Cyaxares.

    During the sack of Nineveh, the most vividly portrayed military unit was the chariotry, omitted by Herodotus. But there you have it, a background explaining how this rudimentary basis of organization ended up becoming the staple material of the Iranian military elite. Combining all of them, and you'd get a very versatile force. Add this with an intricate decimal organization down to the very decimal companyof ten men under a junior officer, up to senior grades of a hundred men strong battalion, and a thousand strong division, up to the myriad, the ten-thousand strong baivārābam (The most famed of the baivarāpatīsh was probably Hydarnes of the Thermopylae fame) and you've got a highly advanced, almost mindbogglingly complicated organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan198
    From what I've read on the Persian Immortals,they wore very light scale mail armor in the form of a tunic that was about as thick as a playing card.
    This is probably from what you have heard and seen, rather than read, per se. That is actually taken verbatim from a pretty sub-par documentary on the Spartan stand at the Thermopylae, courtesy of History Channel; Saying that the scales were about as thick as playing cards is to grossly err on the construct of scale-maille and the protective qualities against archery. Against determined spear-thrusts it was of lesser quality, especially when the thrust could easily lock into weak points in the armour. Archery has a low tolerance when it comes to disrupting stored energy, determined continuous thrusts from a high-quality doru however had a higher tolerance.

    This is why for instance the barge-pole, or kontos, had such a tremendous effect even against armour when used by heavy cavalry. Against another horseman, armoured in scale, the armour would have been worthless (Instead efforts needed to be concentrated towards altering the course of the strike). Because so much energy would have to be stored, the horseman himself risked the great danger of getting unhorsed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyabedes of Aphrodisias
    It was kind of unimpressive...a spear and a wicker shield. I don't know about armor, but I know that much.
    This is a very trivialized depiction on the Iranian foot elites. Their complex organization would actually beg to differ. Each soldier was given a counter-weighted spear of quality, an acinaces and a bow, marking them as highly versatile troops trained as spearmen, horsemen and archers. Depending on the ranks, where the front ranks would likely have carried the large pavise of wicker, the flanks would carry a smaller but sturdier and embossed shield of the Boeotian figure-eight or dipylon shield, and maintaining a rectangular formation; The center-piece of this formation would consist of a thousand foot kinsmen who carried more elaborate and ceremonial uniforms, and in difference to the "silver-spears" carry spears counter-weighted by golden pomegranates.

    In comparison to a heavily armed and armoured hoplite, the ten-thousand strong and the elite-de-elite thousand strong regiment are relatively light in their attire. Excepting cavalry, they did not wear helmets, and the lower body was unprotected. They were equipped for versatility, and would undeniably have been crucial as marksmen, and of high quality as horsemen. They had therefore both offensive and defensive value, as they could assume a wide range of roles in combat. They had an enormous relevance against Asiatic forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim
    the Zhayedan (sassanid immprtals) were dammn good-but they were cataphracts, not footsoldiers, like the Anusiya (companians, the persian word for the 5th century BC immortal)
    Correct, but the Achaemenid precursor regiments also featured a limited, but heavily armed cavalry regiment, which later would extend to the royal Hūvakā heavy cavalry force. The Sassanian ten-thousand strong heavy cavalry force is named accordingly to Hellenistic naming convention (I should probably say miscalculation), as Zhāyedān is a Middle-Persian cognate to the modern Jāvedān, which means "Immortal"; This is further emphasized by the elite de elite Jān-Āvspa (Or Gyan-Avspa depending on the nomenclature) or "Sacrificers of their lives"; Dr. Farrokh gives his personal addenda "Pźshmźrgā" or "Pīshmargān" which means "Those Who Are Beyond Death", giving the one-hundred strong unit within the thousand strong "Pushtīghbān" (Royal vanguard) an ecclesiastical appeal to them.

    The precursors were likely named Ānūshīyā, which means "Companions" in its plural form. It is easy to confuse terms because the Old Persian term for 'companion' is very similar to that of 'immortal'; "Ānūsh" is actually designatory of immortality in Middle Persian and does indeed find a basis in an Old-Persian term.


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  14. #14

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Persian Immortals, ca 510BC

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  15. #15
    Marzbān-ī Jundīshāpūr Member The Persian Cataphract's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Oh noes, The Almighty Moustache has got something to say... <_<


    "Fortunate is every man who in purity and truth recognizes valiance and prevents it from becoming bravado" - Āriōbarzanes of the Sūrźn-Pahlavān

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    ... Why does it seem like the year of the 4Chan for the EB forums? ... Why?

    *dies*
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  17. #17
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    The individual scales of scale armour (and for that matter, lamellae of lamellar) were always kind of thin; this kind of armour didn't work that way. The protective effect came above all from the way they overlapped each other, creating at least double and in some designs triple thickness throughout - and "spaced" at that - over the backing, which usually was at least soft-armour strenght by itself, the way the overlpping metal plates diffuse the force of the blow over a wide area, and the fact this created a smooth, hard surface for blows to glance off of. There were also various ways to further strenghten the individual scales themselves without altering their weight, the most common being the addition of central "rib" or "spine" and embossing (which slightly altered the metallurgical qualities of the scales, and rounded surfaces are all other things being equal stronger).

    Generally speaking, a pretty good solid type of defence, as attested to by its very long-lasting and widespread popularity. Compared to most other types of metal armour, simple and quick to make and repair too. Heck, some present-day body armour uses a similar construction scheme albeit with ballistic ceramics...

    On the downside, upwards thrusts had a nasty tendency to slip under the scales and hence largely bypass the whole metal layer, although give the very shallow angles of attack involved this kind of attack probably had some trouble delivering a deep injury through the internal bracking. The Romans later devised a way around this - the so-called "locked scale", where each scale is also joined to the one below it, which had the downside of making the armour entirely rigid - and both the Chinese and Medieval Europeans came up with the "reversed scale" coat-of-plates version where the plates are on the inside instead.

    That it couldn't really stand up to something like a kontos thrust, nevermind one delivered at charge, isn't really terribly surprising. A strong two-handed thrust with a solid heavy weapon, delivered by a strong man on foot, could potentially go through most Medieval steel plate armour... and the Romans claimed a charging cataphract could transfix two armoured infantrymen at once.
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    aka Artaserse (the Lone Borg) Member Obelics's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
    ... Why does it seem like the year of the 4Chan for the EB forums? ... Why?

    *dies*
    what TH is this 4chan, and what is the meaning of this sentence? it's the second time i see people quoting this word on the Eb forums, and with a negative acception, is it something misterious? boh, im curious on this sort of forums words, i googled it and all i found is something related to manga, i hadn't the pacience to read it, cause i dont like mangas... so please enlightme.... (just without opening an off-topic discussion)

    Replay to post below: there's not wiki.it voice for the word 4chan.
    anyway i still haven't understand what is the sense, but it's not important, never mind.

  19. #19
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Its one of several rectums of the internet, producing a very large percentage of the world's GDP of wrong and horrible in image macro form.

    Why didn't you just go wikipedia it?

    Nvm, no more OTness.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
    ... Why does it seem like the year of the 4Chan for the EB forums? ... Why?

    *dies*
    Its because of me and some other people on the "Blame game" thread.
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  21. #21

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyabedes of Aphrodisias
    It was kind of unimpressive...a spear and a wicker shield. I don't know about armor, but I know that much.
    WHAT! You mean that a hollywood film was not historicaly acurat? but they would never sacrifice accuracy for entertainment..

  22. #22

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    The reason why I bring up the suggestion is that if the Hayasdan were indeed the rightful heirs to the Achaemenid throne, then bringing back the Immortals would be in line with their plan to restore as much of the old order as possible.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf The Great
    Its because of me and some other people on the "Blame game" thread.
    Are you talking about ME?
    Obelics, why don't you like manga? It's a wonderful art for the most part.
    But if we already discussing 4chan, I have to say that I hate the culture of the place. A lot of stupid people who hate everything. /c/, /u/, /w/ and occasionally /a/ and /jp/ are the only boards I spend time on.

    I think we went a little bit off topic...
    Last edited by Leviathan DarklyCute; 03-21-2008 at 20:19.






  24. #24
    Marzbān-ī Jundīshāpūr Member The Persian Cataphract's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    They would not need to re-instate a disbanded organization, when the Arkah already had a foot-guard, and the organization of infantry guardsmen was declining in favour of heavy cavalry, a transition already planted by the late Achaemenid hegemony; With the Parthian advent, this tradition was made to last throughout the years. The Sassanians claimed themselves to be the "rightful heirs" of the Achaemenids, yet made no attempt to reinstate the old Immortal guard infantry regiment; This tradition was instead further invested in Arsacid chivalry, and with Arsacid succession in Armenia, we would do history a gross injustice with this optimistic counter-factual reasoning.

    We must also not forget that the Orontid dynasty formally ended after the Seleucid annexation of Antiochus III Megas; This was water-marked by the future ascendancy of the Artaxiads. Only in pockets of Sophene and Commagene did the Orontid dynasty continue to rule, and in the case of Commagene until the year 72 CE. By then the Greater Armenia was ruled by the cadet Arsacid branch and would continue to do so until the Medieval Marzpanate era in the 5th century CE. By then the entire sector had been thoroughly influenced by Partho-Sassanian military conventions. We find no reason to deviate from the natural course of the events; The Persian reforms for Hayasdan is only a means of cultural and military consolidation accordingly to proven and historically attested models, not a platform for conjectural counter-factual military units.


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  25. #25
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    The Persian Cataphract have you increased your vigilance and redoubled your defenses for the release of the new movie? I hear this will be a factual unflattering treatment and that out of fear the release date will not be provided before hand; it will just happen.
    Last edited by cmacq; 03-22-2008 at 20:59.
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  26. #26
    Marzbān-ī Jundīshāpūr Member The Persian Cataphract's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Enlighten me of this new movie, please.


    "Fortunate is every man who in purity and truth recognizes valiance and prevents it from becoming bravado" - Āriōbarzanes of the Sūrźn-Pahlavān

  27. #27

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Quote Originally Posted by Badg3r
    WHAT! You mean that a hollywood film was not historicaly acurat? but they would never sacrifice accuracy for entertainment..
    You can't blame them, it is their business after all.

  28. #28
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    The soon to be 15 min Dutch movie.
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  29. #29

    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Are you talking about the movie made by Theo Van Goth (RIP)?

  30. #30
    Marzbān-ī Jundīshāpūr Member The Persian Cataphract's Avatar
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    Default Re: Persian Immortals

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    The soon to be 15 min Dutch movie.
    Ah, you mean "Fitna" by Geert Wilders. If the Swedish government manages to dig deep enough to find their own balls in order to show it on the local cinemas, I'll definitely go to see it, but most likely it will not only be banned but also shunned for "offending muslim sensibilities". From what I have heard it will be primarily released on the Internet.

    I believe for one that this movie will arbiter the intellectual struggle between religious dogma and freedom of speech. Those who do not want to see it are free to turn their heads away.


    "Fortunate is every man who in purity and truth recognizes valiance and prevents it from becoming bravado" - Āriōbarzanes of the Sūrźn-Pahlavān

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