Persian Immortals

[cmacq]

Indeed, yet sadly most of humanity remain in the chains of fear that they forge for themselves.

[Watchman]

Or realize that "exerting your freedom of speech" by telling a surly-looking bloke in the taxi queue on a Friday night rude things about his mother is, for one, a pretty damn stupid way to do it, for another, rude and boorish, and for a third, just plain picking a fight.

No, I've no particular reserves of sympathy for guys who do that, even if it isn't within the legal rights of the surly blokes to punch them in the nose for it (which they usually do, judging by what I've seen out in town and in the newspapers). I detest holier-than-thou asshats.

[Spartan198]

This is probably from what you have heard and seen, rather than read, per se. That is actually taken verbatim from a pretty sub-par documentary on the Spartan stand at the Thermopylae, courtesy of History Channel...

What documentary was that?

[The Persian Cataphract]

What documentary was that?

This.

[Spartan198]

This.

Never seen it.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Okay, well, the statement is still featured within, and the purported inefficiency of scale armour is still erronous; This is probably not the first time this misconception has been featured.

[Obelics]

This.

how is it that documentary? i cant understand a lot of spoken eng.
All i can see from the first 2 segments i saw, are just Buddist Bonzo Spartan young boy who are trained on the Shaolin temple of Ares, by sadomasochistic masters who whip at them all the time... and ah, i was forgetting... all the thing is located on the Planet Venus, as you can see from the deep blue atmosphere, and the hight density gas clouds...

[The Persian Cataphract]

Well, that's exactly what I'm talking about, these sort of things really set the mood for the documentary, for the worse. There's like hard-rock music in the background and a lot of stupid special effects for the suspense, and there is this bunch of scholars in Greek classics or book authors stating the obvious or perpetuating outdated nonsense. It's more of a documentary for fourteen year olds to get that quick C in the history essay than something worthwhile to those who know the historical intricacy down to the minute detail

So a quick check-list...

* Label Sardis an Ionian city (When it in fact was capital of Lydia.) - Check
* Omit the historical fact of satrap Mardonius legalizing democracy in his jurisdiction 493 BCE - Check
* Turn the Achaemenids into slayers of democracy - Check
* Worthless speculation on the survival of democracy shall the Persians emerge victorious from the whole conflict - Check
* Omit the mention of fortifications at the site - Check
* Have Steven Pressfield yet again nag about "We will fight in the stupid shade" in a ploy to selling more books - Check
* Turn the Oracle of Delphi into the Ganja Hut - Check
* Turn the Persians into Bedouins - Check

...And there you have it, the cheapening of a great national event and a matter of great pride for the Greeks, at the hands of Classicists who yabber about Western philosophy and civilization in a gross instance trivializing Greek cultural achievement. This was the high moment of the Spartans, and none of their accolade deserves to be diminished with trivial laymen portrayals. The fame of the Spartans could never have materialized without the presence of a prestigious enemy. The Persians were the finest possible choice, but now for all the wrong reasons.

[Spartan198]

You forgot one:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Run away screaming - big check

All joking aside,though: I know there are individuals here that know more about these things than I do,and I'm more than happy to learn from you all. I love history just as much you guys.

[Watchman]

how is it that documentary? i cant understand a lot of spoken eng.
All i can see from the first 2 segments i saw, are just Buddist Bonzo Spartan young boy who are trained on the Shaolin temple of Ares, by sadomasochistic masters who whip at them all the time... and ah, i was forgetting... all the thing is located on the Planet Venus, as you can see from the deep blue atmosphere, and the hight density gas clouds...

Props for the summary, Obelics. May your wit forever flow as freely.

...you're also braver man than me, as I could only stomach about the first one and half minutes of the tacky over-dramatic narration, bad fight scenes and talking-head BS. Ugh.

Also, the comments under it... ...now that's something else too. Is YouTube commentary always like that ? For some reason "donorleone" sounds rather familiar in both name and tone...

[Spartan198]

Also, the comments under it... ...now that's something else too. Is YouTube commentary always like that ?

Unfortunately,yes. But I do hope the two comments that I (SpartanGlory1983) left are excluded from that statement,as I was speaking from a real world,historically-oriented context.
Believe me,I've made the mistake of getting into pointless arguements on there before,and for that I rarely post anymore.

For some reason "donorleone" sounds rather familiar in both name and tone...

That's strange,because I got that same feeling,too...

[Watchman]

Unfortunately,yes. But I do hope the two comments I (SpartanGlory1983) left are excluded from that statement,as I was speaking from a real world,historically-oriented frame of mind.

No names were mentioned. Anyway, just goes to show - the entry requirements of Internet amount to a computer and the rudimentary literacy needed to deal with the interface...

That's strange,because I got that feeling too...

Wonder why ? No, must be a coincindence.

[Spartan198]

No names were mentioned.

That's a relief.

Anyway, just goes to show - the entry requirements of Internet amount to a computer and the rudimentary literacy needed to deal with the interface...

If only You Tube had moderators even remotely near the quality of those here on the .Org and over at TWcenter.
Edit: And a majority of intelligent users for them to moderate. I once ran upon a certain individual who claimed to be a university-educated expert on Classical Greek warfare,yet he had no clue what a Sloped Theban Phalanx was.

Wonder why ? No, must be a coincindence.

Yeah,maybe. But,still,it's difficult to pass off a gut feeling like that.
Amazing how it's possible for individuals who constantly interact through text to recognize eachother through the words we type.

[lobf]

That's a relief.
Edit: And a majority of intelligent users for them to moderate. I once ran upon a certain individual who claimed to be a university-educated expert on Classical Greek warfare,yet he had no clue what a Sloped Theban Phalanx was.

Sounds strangely familiar...

[antisocialmunky]

Dude, the less you read Youtube comments, the more human you are.

[Sarcasm]

Smartest thing I've heard all day.

[Spartan198]

Dude, the less you read Youtube comments, the more human you are.

Yeah,that became obvious long ago.

[Ibrahim]

where's discovery civilizations when ya need them?! H.channel sucks at history-the sadest thing on earth...
@P.cataphract: I had no clue about the cav. squadron-thanks!

[antisocialmunky]

Meh, they're trying to turn History Channel into a brand like they did with Discovery Channel every since they got super ratings form the original Walking With Dinosaurs.

As my English Teacher once said, this sort of thing could be summed up as 'intellectual pornography' since you're getting the quick instant gratifications of abbreviated knowledge rather than the actual substance.

[Justinian II]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Oh noes, The Almighty Moustache has got something to say... <_<

You just killed me with laughter. Seriously.

It kind of reminds me of this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[alatar]

Now, I'm running a forum game based on EB.

One of the factions ( AS, Ptolemies, Bactria) is attempting to remake the Persian immortals (to honor the Persian part of his society).
What sort of armor did they have, and what would be a likely reaction from the Greek part of there society.

[antisocialmunky]

Lol at pwn pic, though shouldn't that be one of those Byzantine little X on a stick crosses?

[Watchman]

It appears to be based on some 1800s Romanticist work. Do yourself a favour and don't expect much any accuracy out of those - they were the prime purveyors of horned and winged Viking helmets and batwing axes after all...

What sort of armor did they have, and what would be a likely reaction from the Greek part of there society.

Scale. (...did you actually read the thread...? ) Of the three realms mentioned though, the AS would seem like the only credible candidate for such a hypothetical project - being, after all, functionally the direct successor state of the old Achaemenid empire (although the Yervandunis up in the Caucasus might want to dispute that at lance-point...); hard to see what connection and interest the Ptolemies and Bactrians, based on quite different subject peoples and traditions, would have in such a specifically Persian institution.

Also, the Hellenes probably wouldn't whine any less than back when Alex started letting Iranians into the ranks of the Hetairoi...

[alatar]

Yeah, I read the thread but it descended into a sort of rabble.
Just wanted confirmation.

And the reason I said all the options was that the state in question wishes to remain secret.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Gentlemen, before we tread out too far out into an enchanting, though conjectural discussion on reinstating an Achaemenid regal institution, we must remember that in those ranks, the regiments consisted of soldiers descended from high nobility and in some cases even royalty, and they were exclusively drafted from Medeans and Persians (Some have recently begun to put Elamites into the addendum, but I would need to investigate this first before I am convinced). So, we have some sort of a parameter of pedigree forming a significant criterion. The Seleucids, were, more than usually of both Iranic and Hellenic blood (More so than Iranology usually admits; The Seleucids are something of a topic ridden with dogma in these circles), even though they championed Hellenism.

Not even the Vâzarangîg or Kamnaskirid/Ganzebrânâ frâtarâkân/clients of Persis or Elymaïs reinstated such a regiment, let alone the Atropatid dynasty of Atropatene; Instead the latter move towards a recorded force of heavy cavalry, apparently quite famed, though Antiochus III Megas had subdued them without a fight. The Atropatid kings were almost spun in legend as "invincible" and as "protectors of the Good Religion" (Zoroastrianism); To such degree that the Sassanians call Atropates "marzpêndân" or "protector of the faith". This means that even though the Seleucids or the Arvandîg/Yervanduni of Armenia could call upon themselves such a claim, in Iranian sensibility, the Medean dynasty of Atropatene were in the finest position, with the frâtarâkân of Elymaïs and Persis following up. Another fine candidate would have been the Gashnâsp of Tapuria.

None of them attempted to resurrect the institution; To the contrary, the Achaemenids, as previously mentioned planted the seeds for a royal cavalry squadron, and this was cultivated long before the Parthian advent; By the time of the Parthian succession, the equestrian traditions of Iran had been cemented and provided the backbone to the succeeding Sassanians; They reinstated the old institution, though probably with abrogated name causing problems in the nomenclature, but entirely as super-heavy cavalry of baivarâbâm/gund size.

[Krusader]

Just a quick sidenote:

From what I've read the Seleukid Argyraspides or 'Silver Shield Corps' numbered around 10.000 men at all times.

Coincidence?

[The Persian Cataphract]

Just a quick sidenote:

From what I've read the Seleukid Argyraspides or 'Silver Shield Corps' numbered around 10.000 men at all times.

Coincidence?

No, not at all, in fact this is a most excellent point emphasizing why there was no need to reinstate the old Achaemenid institution; The Seleucid corps came to partially adopt the otherwise very Iranian decimal organization, while retaining the proportions of the ile/ilai for cavalry (squadrons), and the Graeco-Macedonian "plate" for the phalangites. The Silver Shields were infantry elites, very closely attached to the Seleucid Basileus, but at the same time the Hetairoi, and the later Agema and particularly the latter consisted substantially of Iranians, if not outrightly predominantly. We find it very notorious that Elymaïs and Persis initially sided with the Seleucids during the great Parthian invasion by Mithradates I The Philhellene and his successor Phraates II. This of course is paired with the dominant equestrian culture of Medea and Atropatene which was a first-hand source of the heavy cavalry corpus of the Seleucids; The Nisaean pastures as we usually call it. Upon the Parthian capture of Medea and the reconquista of Medea after the battle of Ecbatana, was probably to the detriment of the "frâtarâkâ" clients.

Having a figure of ten-thousand foot elites means not only a highly capable reserve of significant size, but with many Iranian officers in the ranks, working with a gund or baivarâbâm-size force was probably a significant tactical feature. It would certainly be more friendly to native auxiliaries who more or less retained the decimal structure of their forces, especially archers. Allowing the diverse forces to retain their own features and tactical uniqueness is quite Achaemenid in philosophy, but this philosophy was never broken during the Seleucid succession; Galatian warriors, Iranic cavalry and archery, Steppen light horse, Thracians, Anatolian light infantry, Chaldean auxiliaries, Idumaeans... This is not a uniform military force. In fact, the Seleucids inherited a vast spectra, but also inherited its problems. Ten thousand strong body of royal guardsmen seems to be quite the magic number, and would beg to be unique to the dynasties that have ruled the Greater Iran; The Sassanids would themselves sponsor such a guard, but turned them into cavalry.

Being a Shâh of such a vast area calls for the loyalty of kinsmen, and ten thousand of them would deter any separate force to make any move; The Achaemenids seemed to be rather successful, where conflicts and revolt would become the staple when the King of Kings was campaigning. The great exception of course was the revolt of Cyrus The Younger, but it seems to be an exception to the rule.

[Ibrahim]

Meh, they're trying to turn History Channel into a brand like they did with Discovery Channel every since they got super ratings form the original Walking With Dinosaurs.

As my English Teacher once said, this sort of thing could be summed up as 'intellectual pornography' since you're getting the quick instant gratifications of abbreviated knowledge rather than the actual substance.

indeed...you heard of the History channel's "history of sex"? now that's "intellectual pornography"
no wonder the current generation is so messed up educationally in the state of Texas
@ persian cataphract: don't forget: Sparta and Athens were bitter rivals in 480BC? I thought that was afterwords..I dunno I could be wrong. can some one knowlegeble explain?
and why is hoplon mentioned? it's an Aspis!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Spartan198]

why is hoplon mentioned? it's an Aspis!!!!!!!!!!!!

'Hoplon' has been mistakenly but continuously used to describe specifically the hoplite aspis,when the word was actually,I think,pretty generic for 'weapon'.

[Watchman]

Wasn't it more like "arms", ie. the whole pile of weapons and armour ?