Persian Immortals

[jsadighi]

Any chance of seeing them in the next version of EB? I've seen one other request for them before, but the request was shot down with the reason being that they were disbanded after Alexander had defeated the Persian Empire.

However, if I'm not mistaken, the Immortals were brought back several times under several Empires. The third Persian Empire under the Sassanid dynasty and the Eastern Roman Empire had brought back the Immortals.

Perhaps Hayasdan players can have the option of recruiting the Immortals through the Persian Reforms?

[General Appo]

No. Or at least, I sure hope so. Both the Sassanid and ERE are waaaay after EB´s timeframe, and besides, I´m not sure how elite these reborn Immortals actually were.

[Ibrahim]

the Zhayedan (sassanid immprtals) were dammn good-but they were cataphracts, not footsoldiers, like the Anusiya (companians, the persian word for the 5th century BC immortal)

[quackingduck]

what did the real immortals actually use for weaponry and armor? im gonna make a crazy assumtion and say that it is not 2 katanas and metal face masks like off 300 :P

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

what did the real immortals actually use for weaponry and armor? im gonna make a crazy assumtion and say that it is not 2 katanas and metal face masks like off 300 :P

It was kind of unimpressive...a spear and a wicker shield. I don't know about armor, but I know that much.

[Spartan198]

From what I've read on the Persian Immortals,they wore very light scale mail armor in the form of a tunic that was about as thick as a playing card.

[Badg3r]

It was kind of unimpressive...a spear and a wicker shield. I don't know about armor, but I know that much.

WHAT! You mean that a hollywood film was not historicaly acurat? but they would never sacrifice accuracy for entertainment..

[The Persian Cataphract]

where is The Persian Cataphract? I am looking forward for his comment on this!

Salve!

Persian immortals are just archer-spearmen. Maybe the things in EB are not exactly the same things but they would have been more or less identical to those in EB anywway, and served the same purpose.

Not true. The Iranian archer-spearmen in EB are levies; The Immortals were professionals who were trained to use the spear both on foot and on horse-back, and to use the bow both on foot and on horse-back. This is verified by recorded accounts of Darius I The Great when he re-tells the days when he was the Royal Spear-bearer or "Arshtîbarâ" of the King of Kings Cambyses The Great. This is further verified by Herodotus' famed maxim of Achaemenid chivalry where they were "educated in three things only; Archery, equestrian sports and to speak the truth.

This call for versatility in using spear, bow and horse, is deeply rooted in Medean tradition, which Herodotus calls upon the enigmatic High King of the Medean empire, Cyaxares, or as Kurds and Medieval Persian bard Ferdôwsî call him, Kây-Khusrô, and Herodotus' claim of said character reforming the Medean army accordingly to the ranks of horsemen, archers and spears. This account is deemed dubious, because Herodotus suggests that the Medeans were the first in bringing such organization (Which is refuted by Assyrian military depictions); The Medeans probably were aware of the advantages of a proper military order prior to the ascendancy of Cyaxares.

During the sack of Nineveh, the most vividly portrayed military unit was the chariotry, omitted by Herodotus. But there you have it, a background explaining how this rudimentary basis of organization ended up becoming the staple material of the Iranian military elite. Combining all of them, and you'd get a very versatile force. Add this with an intricate decimal organization down to the very decimal companyof ten men under a junior officer, up to senior grades of a hundred men strong battalion, and a thousand strong division, up to the myriad, the ten-thousand strong baivârâbam (The most famed of the baivarâpatîsh was probably Hydarnes of the Thermopylae fame) and you've got a highly advanced, almost mindbogglingly complicated organization.

From what I've read on the Persian Immortals,they wore very light scale mail armor in the form of a tunic that was about as thick as a playing card.

This is probably from what you have heard and seen, rather than read, per se. That is actually taken verbatim from a pretty sub-par documentary on the Spartan stand at the Thermopylae, courtesy of History Channel; Saying that the scales were about as thick as playing cards is to grossly err on the construct of scale-maille and the protective qualities against archery. Against determined spear-thrusts it was of lesser quality, especially when the thrust could easily lock into weak points in the armour. Archery has a low tolerance when it comes to disrupting stored energy, determined continuous thrusts from a high-quality doru however had a higher tolerance.

This is why for instance the barge-pole, or kontos, had such a tremendous effect even against armour when used by heavy cavalry. Against another horseman, armoured in scale, the armour would have been worthless (Instead efforts needed to be concentrated towards altering the course of the strike). Because so much energy would have to be stored, the horseman himself risked the great danger of getting unhorsed.

It was kind of unimpressive...a spear and a wicker shield. I don't know about armor, but I know that much.

This is a very trivialized depiction on the Iranian foot elites. Their complex organization would actually beg to differ. Each soldier was given a counter-weighted spear of quality, an acinaces and a bow, marking them as highly versatile troops trained as spearmen, horsemen and archers. Depending on the ranks, where the front ranks would likely have carried the large pavise of wicker, the flanks would carry a smaller but sturdier and embossed shield of the Boeotian figure-eight or dipylon shield, and maintaining a rectangular formation; The center-piece of this formation would consist of a thousand foot kinsmen who carried more elaborate and ceremonial uniforms, and in difference to the "silver-spears" carry spears counter-weighted by golden pomegranates.

In comparison to a heavily armed and armoured hoplite, the ten-thousand strong and the elite-de-elite thousand strong regiment are relatively light in their attire. Excepting cavalry, they did not wear helmets, and the lower body was unprotected. They were equipped for versatility, and would undeniably have been crucial as marksmen, and of high quality as horsemen. They had therefore both offensive and defensive value, as they could assume a wide range of roles in combat. They had an enormous relevance against Asiatic forces.

the Zhayedan (sassanid immprtals) were dammn good-but they were cataphracts, not footsoldiers, like the Anusiya (companians, the persian word for the 5th century BC immortal)

Correct, but the Achaemenid precursor regiments also featured a limited, but heavily armed cavalry regiment, which later would extend to the royal Hûvakâ heavy cavalry force. The Sassanian ten-thousand strong heavy cavalry force is named accordingly to Hellenistic naming convention (I should probably say miscalculation), as Zhâyedân is a Middle-Persian cognate to the modern Jâvedân, which means "Immortal"; This is further emphasized by the elite de elite Jân-Âvspa (Or Gyan-Avspa depending on the nomenclature) or "Sacrificers of their lives"; Dr. Farrokh gives his personal addenda "Pêshmêrgâ" or "Pîshmargân" which means "Those Who Are Beyond Death", giving the one-hundred strong unit within the thousand strong "Pushtîghbân" (Royal vanguard) an ecclesiastical appeal to them.

The precursors were likely named Ânûshîyâ, which means "Companions" in its plural form. It is easy to confuse terms because the Old Persian term for 'companion' is very similar to that of 'immortal'; "Ânûsh" is actually designatory of immortality in Middle Persian and does indeed find a basis in an Old-Persian term.

[Tyrfingr]

Persian Immortals, ca 510BC

[The Persian Cataphract]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Oh noes, The Almighty Moustache has got something to say... <_<

[antisocialmunky]

... Why does it seem like the year of the 4Chan for the EB forums? ... Why?

*dies*

[Watchman]

The individual scales of scale armour (and for that matter, lamellae of lamellar) were always kind of thin; this kind of armour didn't work that way. The protective effect came above all from the way they overlapped each other, creating at least double and in some designs triple thickness throughout - and "spaced" at that - over the backing, which usually was at least soft-armour strenght by itself, the way the overlpping metal plates diffuse the force of the blow over a wide area, and the fact this created a smooth, hard surface for blows to glance off of. There were also various ways to further strenghten the individual scales themselves without altering their weight, the most common being the addition of central "rib" or "spine" and embossing (which slightly altered the metallurgical qualities of the scales, and rounded surfaces are all other things being equal stronger).

Generally speaking, a pretty good solid type of defence, as attested to by its very long-lasting and widespread popularity. Compared to most other types of metal armour, simple and quick to make and repair too. Heck, some present-day body armour uses a similar construction scheme albeit with ballistic ceramics...

On the downside, upwards thrusts had a nasty tendency to slip under the scales and hence largely bypass the whole metal layer, although give the very shallow angles of attack involved this kind of attack probably had some trouble delivering a deep injury through the internal bracking. The Romans later devised a way around this - the so-called "locked scale", where each scale is also joined to the one below it, which had the downside of making the armour entirely rigid - and both the Chinese and Medieval Europeans came up with the "reversed scale" coat-of-plates version where the plates are on the inside instead.

That it couldn't really stand up to something like a kontos thrust, nevermind one delivered at charge, isn't really terribly surprising. A strong two-handed thrust with a solid heavy weapon, delivered by a strong man on foot, could potentially go through most Medieval steel plate armour... and the Romans claimed a charging cataphract could transfix two armoured infantrymen at once.

[Obelics]

... Why does it seem like the year of the 4Chan for the EB forums? ... Why?

*dies*

what TH is this 4chan, and what is the meaning of this sentence? it's the second time i see people quoting this word on the Eb forums, and with a negative acception, is it something misterious? boh, im curious on this sort of forums words, i googled it and all i found is something related to manga, i hadn't the pacience to read it, cause i dont like mangas... so please enlightme.... (just without opening an off-topic discussion)

Replay to post below: there's not wiki.it voice for the word 4chan.
anyway i still haven't understand what is the sense, but it's not important, never mind.

[antisocialmunky]

Its one of several rectums of the internet, producing a very large percentage of the world's GDP of wrong and horrible in image macro form.

Why didn't you just go wikipedia it?

Nvm, no more OTness.

[Olaf The Great]

... Why does it seem like the year of the 4Chan for the EB forums? ... Why?

*dies*

Its because of me and some other people on the "Blame game" thread.

[jsadighi]

The reason why I bring up the suggestion is that if the Hayasdan were indeed the rightful heirs to the Achaemenid throne, then bringing back the Immortals would be in line with their plan to restore as much of the old order as possible.

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

Its because of me and some other people on the "Blame game" thread.

Are you talking about ME?
Obelics, why don't you like manga? It's a wonderful art for the most part.
But if we already discussing 4chan, I have to say that I hate the culture of the place. A lot of stupid people who hate everything. /c/, /u/, /w/ and occasionally /a/ and /jp/ are the only boards I spend time on.

I think we went a little bit off topic...

[Justinian II]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Oh noes, The Almighty Moustache has got something to say... <_<

You just killed me with laughter. Seriously.

It kind of reminds me of this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[alatar]

Now, I'm running a forum game based on EB.

One of the factions ( AS, Ptolemies, Bactria) is attempting to remake the Persian immortals (to honor the Persian part of his society).
What sort of armor did they have, and what would be a likely reaction from the Greek part of there society.

[antisocialmunky]

Lol at pwn pic, though shouldn't that be one of those Byzantine little X on a stick crosses?

[Spartan198]

This is probably from what you have heard and seen, rather than read, per se. That is actually taken verbatim from a pretty sub-par documentary on the Spartan stand at the Thermopylae, courtesy of History Channel...

What documentary was that?

[The Persian Cataphract]

What documentary was that?

This.

[Spartan198]

This.

Never seen it.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Okay, well, the statement is still featured within, and the purported inefficiency of scale armour is still erronous; This is probably not the first time this misconception has been featured.

[Obelics]

This.

how is it that documentary? i cant understand a lot of spoken eng.
All i can see from the first 2 segments i saw, are just Buddist Bonzo Spartan young boy who are trained on the Shaolin temple of Ares, by sadomasochistic masters who whip at them all the time... and ah, i was forgetting... all the thing is located on the Planet Venus, as you can see from the deep blue atmosphere, and the hight density gas clouds...

[The Persian Cataphract]

Well, that's exactly what I'm talking about, these sort of things really set the mood for the documentary, for the worse. There's like hard-rock music in the background and a lot of stupid special effects for the suspense, and there is this bunch of scholars in Greek classics or book authors stating the obvious or perpetuating outdated nonsense. It's more of a documentary for fourteen year olds to get that quick C in the history essay than something worthwhile to those who know the historical intricacy down to the minute detail

So a quick check-list...

* Label Sardis an Ionian city (When it in fact was capital of Lydia.) - Check
* Omit the historical fact of satrap Mardonius legalizing democracy in his jurisdiction 493 BCE - Check
* Turn the Achaemenids into slayers of democracy - Check
* Worthless speculation on the survival of democracy shall the Persians emerge victorious from the whole conflict - Check
* Omit the mention of fortifications at the site - Check
* Have Steven Pressfield yet again nag about "We will fight in the stupid shade" in a ploy to selling more books - Check
* Turn the Oracle of Delphi into the Ganja Hut - Check
* Turn the Persians into Bedouins - Check

...And there you have it, the cheapening of a great national event and a matter of great pride for the Greeks, at the hands of Classicists who yabber about Western philosophy and civilization in a gross instance trivializing Greek cultural achievement. This was the high moment of the Spartans, and none of their accolade deserves to be diminished with trivial laymen portrayals. The fame of the Spartans could never have materialized without the presence of a prestigious enemy. The Persians were the finest possible choice, but now for all the wrong reasons.

[Watchman]

how is it that documentary? i cant understand a lot of spoken eng.
All i can see from the first 2 segments i saw, are just Buddist Bonzo Spartan young boy who are trained on the Shaolin temple of Ares, by sadomasochistic masters who whip at them all the time... and ah, i was forgetting... all the thing is located on the Planet Venus, as you can see from the deep blue atmosphere, and the hight density gas clouds...

Props for the summary, Obelics. May your wit forever flow as freely.

...you're also braver man than me, as I could only stomach about the first one and half minutes of the tacky over-dramatic narration, bad fight scenes and talking-head BS. Ugh.

Also, the comments under it... ...now that's something else too. Is YouTube commentary always like that ? For some reason "donorleone" sounds rather familiar in both name and tone...