Question About Hoplites

[psprpg]

Ive downloaded Europa Barbarorum today, installed and shockingly when i enter the game as the helenistic greeks i find hoplite spearmen with illogical positioned spears (holding them over the head), is this like some random glitch or were people oddly muscled enough to acctualy hold spears above their heads whilst having sheilds on (the shields could be used to brace the spears and prevent the majority of movement).. slightly mystifying because ive trained with a staff spear with my ninjitsu master, and i can use a spear quite proficiently. the spear would be almost impossible to use unless you were using two hands with the left (or right) hand supporting slightly towards the spear head and the right hand (or left depending on if your kaky handed) holding closer to the end of the spear.

just a random question, because it is utterly illogical to hold a spear over your head simply because of the depth perception problems, But hey odd things work sometimes if trained enough, like that lady that can pop her eyes out a massive distance


-Regards - psp

[Sarcasm]

Oh my. Another katana blonker.

Asian martial arts rule. Katanas are totally the best sword ever. We get it. Move along.

[johnhughthom]

Do a search of the forum, there have been quite a few threads on this topic. From what I can gather on a subject I know little about it seems you can either believe that as modern re-enactors find it difficult to use a spear overarm ancient hoplites couldn't have fought that way, or you can accept the huge amount of ancient art that shows hoplites using spears in an overarm fashion. Not really too much to think about in my view.

[psprpg]

Oh my. Another katana blonker.

Asian martial arts rule. Katanas are totally the best sword ever. We get it. Move along.

did i say that katanas rule? NO, i dislike katanas especially.... katana's were the weapons that millions of japanese people killed each other with...by far not the perfect weapon if you asked me. i was meerly asking wether it is acctualy possible and considering i have studied staff/spear it just seemed a bad way to use a weapon. but if you would like to go on assuming that your preconcieved idea that people that like the katana as a weapon are foolhardy, then by all means do it somewhere else, especially in a topic where im meerly asking a question.

anyway thanks john
i just didnt think it would work but ill have to investigate it more.
(btw i dont spend all of my time looking at the huge ammounts of ancient art)

[oudysseos]

The point is that all the actual evidence in art, statuary and writing point to the overarm stance as being prevalent. This is why the EB team, with their emphasis on historical accuracy, decided to implement the overarm animation for hoplites. The game engine is limited and can never be a totally accurate model of the real world, so while it may be true, as has been pointed out a gazillion trillion times in other threads, that under-arm grips may also have been used at times, the team feels (I don't speak for them, just paraphrasing) that they have done the best that one could do.

Modern re-enactments may be fun for everyone involved but do not ever prove anything about what actually happened. At the very utmost they can prove what would have been possible- a very different coloured kettle of sea-horses.

I just love mixed metaphors. Also, the katana blonker poster shouldn't have been so sarcastic. Your original post was not rude and you seem truly interested. But there have been a gazillion very repetitive threads on this issue.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26sa%3DN

[psprpg]

ahhh =D thanks oudysseos, i think ill research it a bit to get the fundamentals right about it. =D and i wasnt really refering to modern re enactments but thats all good. and i am in no way attacking at the team of europa barbarorum... its an excellent mod, i guess it just looks a little odd with the game engine =D but thats a given as most things look a little odd in rtw most of the time lol. (once i had upside down samnite mercs in vanilla O.o)

[NeoSpartan]

Hoplites fought in a tight formation with overlaping shields, the 2 ranks in the front did most of the fighting while the 6 ranks behind pushed men the men front. (The other side is doing the same). So there is really no room to hold spear at waist level, as u can easely hit the guy behind u, and try to use it like u speak off. UNLESS the men break formation.

Also, the Dori was weighted so the balance point would be farther back, that way the hoplite could have most of the spear in front of him.

In the game keep your Hoplites with "HOLD" on while they fight and you will see what I mean.

my2cents

[Sarcasm]

did i say that katanas rule? NO, i dislike katanas especially.... katana's were the weapons that millions of japanese people killed each other with...by far not the perfect weapon if you asked me. i was meerly asking wether it is acctualy possible and considering i have studied staff/spear it just seemed a bad way to use a weapon. but if you would like to go on assuming that your preconcieved idea that people that like the katana as a weapon are foolhardy, then by all means do it somewhere else, especially in a topic where im meerly asking a question.

anyway thanks john
i just didnt think it would work but ill have to investigate it more.
(btw i dont spend all of my time looking at the huge ammounts of ancient art)

No, you were not asking a question. Your entire first post was built around how this form of Western combat technique which was used for over a millennia was illogical, impossible to use without two hands (what are you even talking about? Spears were used one-handed the majority of the times) and only for people with an odd musculature.

Even if you weren't being somewhat insulting towards the team for representing it in its mod, or towards the millions of people who fought and died in this manner, I think I'm just tired of people who practice Japanese/Chinese/Korean martial arts, thinking they've found the end-all, superior form of combat. I'm especially not fond of Westerners who just throw their entire martial heritage out the window, and proclaim to the heavens just how these weapons and combat forms are superior to everything else.

Reminds me of a time this Kenjutsu master had all his pupils over at an arms convention, and he proudly chopped a pair of bamboos with his katana as the crowd behind and his own students cheered on. At one point these 2 guys, who were fencing with German bastards swords in the background, became somewhat angry. So one of these guys jumps over the fence, approaches the bamboos that were all set up for more chopping, and proceeded to do the same as the Japanese guy and cut through all of them. Did I mention that the bastard swords were dull? Heh, funny, ain't it?

[russia almighty]

Actually, it would be easy to get use to stabbing with a dori in the over hand style. Practice stabbing like that and you'll get all the endurance you need built up, in those small, rarely trained muscles (there are a lot up in the area connecting the arm to the rest of the body).

I've actually seen something like that Sarcasm. Cept, Katana vs. a Bastard sword. Both were like 3000 dollar swords, the bastard sword broke the Katana after a few blows.



No offense, Sarcasm, but what no weapons martial arts wise are there in the west, besides boxing and wrestling? Now if your including BJJ and Sambo ignore this statement then.

[Watchman]

Pankration went pretty far along the road of unarmed striking techniques AFAIK (on top of the usual slew of joint lock, strangling techniques, throws, takedowns etc. pretty much every martial tradition everywhere included pretty much by default, and often in rather advanced forms), and Savate's around as kick-crazy as TKD by what I know of it. Dunno if you can count Capoiera in too.

Europeans seem to generally have preferred to do their killing with weapons though, and grappling techniques achieved most of the rest well enough. Probably had something to do with the blunt fact most "Western" societies until quite recently were armed to the proverbial teeth at every level, regardless of what the matter was supposed to be.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Ah, where's Urnamma when you need him.... He could you tell quite a bit about katana's and how they are not superior to other swords.

Nevermind now this daydreaming: the OP wonders about the practice of overhand spear-fighting. We must keep in mind that there is a small but significant difference between martial arts and martial arts. The one used in combat is to be as effective as possible, and not getting yourself killed. Killing the guy opposing you is totally irrelevant, and besides the point (if you are not convinced, I sugges tot try and find statistics of how many soldiers actually aimed during WO2... nevermind now, how many soldiers actually shot...).

The other is more of an art form intent on -basically- showing off how well trained one is...

If we assume both to be the same, then there is also no sense in the Roman fighting techniques: I mean that scutum kinda takes up all the room to manoeuvre. However, since we do not assume this we can easily understand the combination: you hold the scutum frantically in front of you waiting until either the opponent stops stabbing at you or makes a mistake so you can stab at him...

[Sarcasm]

Actually, it would be easy to get use to stabbing with a dori in the over hand style. Practice stabbing like that and you'll get all the endurance you need built up, in those small, rarely trained muscles (there are a lot up in the area connecting the arm to the rest of the body).

I've actually seen something like that Sarcasm. Cept, Katana vs. a Bastard sword. Both were like 3000 dollar swords, the bastard sword broke the Katana after a few blows.

No offense, Sarcasm, but what no weapons martial arts wise are there in the west, besides boxing and wrestling? Now if your including BJJ and Sambo ignore this statement then.

Well first of all you're putting every kind of boxing and wrestling into the same bag, when different regions had different traditions. And I wasn't referring at all to just unarmed martial traditions...staff/spear/polearm fighting techniques in particular were really widespread, and for just two quick examples you have the Jogo Do Pau right here in Portugal or the Bata in Ireland.

[Spartan198]

I'm staying out of the western-eastern combat techniques debate that appears to be arising here,but IMO the two seperate techniques were developed because they both worked.

As far as the hoplite question,I'm inclined to accept the archeological evidence for dorata being wielded overhand. It just seems like common sense to use it in that manner. I know I wouldn't want that nasty buttspike rammed into my gut or groin.

Besides,classical hoplites just seem to fight better in the overhand style,plus they can charge and seem (at least to me) somewhat more tactically flexible (and Hypaspistai aren't needed to guard the right flank,leaving room for siege artillery!)

[Dayve]

I once asked the same question. I haven't read the whole thread and i'm sure somebody will have already said this but what the hell, i feel like typing.

A lot of ancient artworks show Greek hoplites holding their spears over-arm. I tried it one day with a mop handle, hitting the sofa. Under-arm, you can get a good hard thrust. Over-arm, not so good, so i came here and asked the question you asked.

It's so simple when you think about it though. The ancient Greeks used very large round shields and fought in tight formation, shield-wall, side by side, presenting a wall of shields.

If you hold the shield under-arm you have two big problems. Firstly the guy on the right's shield is going to restrict you from doing anything but a straight-forward thrust. Secondly all you're going to hit with a straight-forward thrust is your enemies shield, over and over and over again.

However! Overarm, your spear is above the man on the right's shield, giving you more room to move it about. Not much more i'll grant you that but more room nonetheless. Also, you can poke over your enemies shield rather than directly into it, and rape your enemies face with your spear.

[Dhampir]

A lot of ancient artworks show Greek hoplites holding their spears over-arm. I tried it one day with a mop handle, hitting the sofa. Under-arm, you can get a good hard thrust. Over-arm, not so good, so i came here and asked the question you asked.

I tried it with a broom handle on my brother and the over-arm stab-down hurt him more than the under-arm thrust.

[Sarcasm]

Holding a broom isn't really the best way to get a feel for the technique. Short of having an actual balanced spear there's really not much you can do to have the full experience. It really is a comfortable grip, and not at all awkward to use. I dunno where these guys come from.

[Dhampir]

Holding a broom isn't really the best way to get a feel for the technique. Short of having an actual balanced spear there's really not much you can do to have the full experience. It really is a comfortable grip, and not at all awkward to use. I dunno where these guys come from.

I don't have a spear, though. I have a couple of muskets that I can attach bayonets to, but they're really off balance when you hold them over your head.

[Dayve]

I wasn't comparing a broom handle to a spear, i was wondering why, if i could get a better thrust under-arm, did the Greeks use it over-arm.

However, even if i was, a good comparison could actually be made. A spear is a long piece of wood with a pointed piece of metal on each end. A broom handle is a long piece of wood. Both are balanced. The broom can be sharpened at each end to make it a spear. 5,000 men can stand side-by-side presenting a shieldwall using sharpened brooms and would have the same problems if using them underhand as the ancient Greeks would.

[NeoSpartan]

I tried it with a broom handle on my brother and the over-arm stab-down hurt him more than the under-arm thrust.

OK now do this.

take 7 of your buddies give them all broom sticks, have them hold their left arm as if they had a shield, and hold the spear under hand.

Then put 2 of them in the front rank, then 2 behind, 2 behind, and another 2 behind (make sure you are in the center).

Next step make sure you are all very close to eachother.

Finaly walk up to a wall 5feet (1.5 meters) tall and try to PUSH the wall. Yes PUSH the wall. The guys in the front push on the wall and the guys in the back push on the guys in the front.

Once u do that try the same thing, BUT hold the broom stick overhead.


Thats how the greek phalanx of old works son.

2 opposite phalanxes are literally 2 shield walls slamming against eachother and pushing.

p.s. watch out for ur nuts. Also for added realism RUN into the wall at a decent pace (not full speed or u will break formation).

[Tellos Athenaios]

I tried it with a broom handle on my brother and the over-arm stab-down hurt him more than the under-arm thrust.

If you'd been fair to him, you'd be the one to get hurt though.

EB Forum Debates: Brings out the experimental archeologist in you.

[J.Alco]

I'm just going to throw in my two cents here for the hell of it:

As Dayve says, overarm techniques for spears make sense when you're in a tightly packed formation and maintaining a shield wall. Also, I imagine that realistically, at some point in the battle, you'd angle your spear in such a way that it rested on the rim of your shield while still pointing towards the enemy in a vaguely threatening manner. It seems only natural keeping in mind that battles could last several hours.

But EB is a game, and a game has graphical restraints, and so the hoplites fight with the spear held higher than would have been done in real life, but hey, you can't do anything about that so there's little point in complaining.

Although, OP, if it is an issue that bugs you, I recommend downloading TWFanatic's mod. It improves the Hoplites.

And OP, this comment isn't directed towards you, so if I offend you I apologise. Personally, I'm also sick and tired of Katana fanboys. Good God what I would give to see some decent Bastard sword fighting on TV or in the movies some day.

EDIT
Oh, and I just remembered. European Martial Arts that aren't wrestling or boxing include: Savate (French kick-boxing), Palo Canario (Canary Islands Stick-fighting), Bartitsu (Yes, the name is hilarious, and it's basically hand-to-hand combat developed in England), and I'm sure there're a few more buried around.

[Sarcasm]

A few points people seem not to be grasping about this. First a typical picture of hoplite combat...



The spear for one isn't held like they did in 300. It's used more like if one was stabbing with a knife; it's a pretty powerful jab and just as accurate as any one-handed underarm once you get the hang of it.

People are saying it's dangerous and can hit people in the face if the spear was used overhand. They seem to forget that it is probably as dangerous in that respect when you use a spear underhanded. Especially considering that pretty much everyone had some form of head protection and not everyone owned a piece of armour. The spear itself would be at an acute angle pointing upwards anyway. In any case it would only really be a problem for the first rows, the others could hold their spear normally as they pushed forward.

The spear-butt itself can obviously be used to rest. You weren't expected to be in that pose for the entire battle, or hold your shield for that matter. The combat itself would be rather short, and most probably not all in one single bout. Not only wouldn't the whole line engage at the same time, you would probably be able to rest and rotate at least the front ranks before joining battle again. Another thing people are probably missing is that this piece enables you to use the spear farther to the back due to its weight.

You can argue that the shield would protect the back rows (what about the front ones?) from the spear-butt, but if they did indeed push forward with an underhand grip, the spears would have to pass through some space, and then you're breaking up the formation and loosing shock value. Same thing applies to the front ranks - to use an underhand grip you have to open the shield wall a bit, something that you can take advantage. The trajectory of the spear itself would mean that you would be aiming at the most protected part of the other guy, the shield.

As for cavalry, you can hardly apply the same principle here. It's a whole new ball game.

[Watchman]

You can argue that the shield would protect the back rows (what about the front ones?) from the spear-butt, but if they did indeed push forward with an underhand grip, the spears would have to pass through some space, and then you're breaking up the formation and loosing shock value. Same thing applies to the front ranks - to use an underhand grip you have to open the shield wall a bit, something that you can take advantage. The trajectory of the spear itself would mean that you would be aiming at the most protected part of the other guy, the shield.

And to add, having your spear-butt constantly bang against your mates' shields/cuirasses is somewhat unlikely to improve its handling and wieldability - doubly so in the already very cramped maneuvering space that would be available with an underhand grip between the closely spaced aspi (sp?).

We're talking about like a third or so of the total lenght behind the grip point, after all. This ain't no Medieval couched lance.

The spear-butt itself can obviously be used to rest.
---
Another thing people are probably missing is that this piece enables you to use the spear farther to the back due to its weight.

In addition, it gives you a passable spare spearhead. All kinds of uses for that, too.

[Tellos Athenaios]

aspi (sp?).

Aspides.

[Sarcasm]

And to add, having your spear-butt constantly bang against your mates' shields/cuirasses is somewhat unlikely to improve its handling and wieldability - doubly so in the already very cramped maneuvering space that would be available with an underhand grip between the closely spaced aspi (sp?).

Hehe, can you say "broken spear"? How about "hoplites with only swords are useless"?

We're talking about like a third or so of the total lenght behind the grip point, after all. This ain't no Medieval couched lance.
In addition, it gives you a passable spare spearhead. All kinds of uses for that, too.

Well yeah. One of the main uses people figure it had was to finish off any guys that would be lying on the floor once the phalanx started moving forward.

[Jolt]

The spear for one isn't held like they did in 300.

When I watched the movie I was like "What the...?" They used an over-head, inverted arm technique of sorts. I always laughed at how easy it would have been for any Persian soldier to pierce their unarmored spear arm with a spear, thus rendering that soldier practically inoperable.

[Spartan198]

Personally, I'm also sick and tired of Katana fanboys. Good God what I would give to see some decent Bastard sword fighting on TV or in the movies some day.

Testify!

Granted I don't have an extensive knowledge of ancient Japanese swordplay,but a logical mind knows that a katana has its limitations,just like a xiphos,gladius,falcata,or any other weapon,both past and present.