Question About Hoplites

[Sarcasm]

did i say that katanas rule? NO, i dislike katanas especially.... katana's were the weapons that millions of japanese people killed each other with...by far not the perfect weapon if you asked me. i was meerly asking wether it is acctualy possible and considering i have studied staff/spear it just seemed a bad way to use a weapon. but if you would like to go on assuming that your preconcieved idea that people that like the katana as a weapon are foolhardy, then by all means do it somewhere else, especially in a topic where im meerly asking a question.

anyway thanks john
i just didnt think it would work but ill have to investigate it more.
(btw i dont spend all of my time looking at the huge ammounts of ancient art)

No, you were not asking a question. Your entire first post was built around how this form of Western combat technique which was used for over a millennia was illogical, impossible to use without two hands (what are you even talking about? Spears were used one-handed the majority of the times) and only for people with an odd musculature.

Even if you weren't being somewhat insulting towards the team for representing it in its mod, or towards the millions of people who fought and died in this manner, I think I'm just tired of people who practice Japanese/Chinese/Korean martial arts, thinking they've found the end-all, superior form of combat. I'm especially not fond of Westerners who just throw their entire martial heritage out the window, and proclaim to the heavens just how these weapons and combat forms are superior to everything else.

Reminds me of a time this Kenjutsu master had all his pupils over at an arms convention, and he proudly chopped a pair of bamboos with his katana as the crowd behind and his own students cheered on. At one point these 2 guys, who were fencing with German bastards swords in the background, became somewhat angry. So one of these guys jumps over the fence, approaches the bamboos that were all set up for more chopping, and proceeded to do the same as the Japanese guy and cut through all of them. Did I mention that the bastard swords were dull? Heh, funny, ain't it?

[russia almighty]

Actually, it would be easy to get use to stabbing with a dori in the over hand style. Practice stabbing like that and you'll get all the endurance you need built up, in those small, rarely trained muscles (there are a lot up in the area connecting the arm to the rest of the body).

I've actually seen something like that Sarcasm. Cept, Katana vs. a Bastard sword. Both were like 3000 dollar swords, the bastard sword broke the Katana after a few blows.



No offense, Sarcasm, but what no weapons martial arts wise are there in the west, besides boxing and wrestling? Now if your including BJJ and Sambo ignore this statement then.

[Watchman]

Pankration went pretty far along the road of unarmed striking techniques AFAIK (on top of the usual slew of joint lock, strangling techniques, throws, takedowns etc. pretty much every martial tradition everywhere included pretty much by default, and often in rather advanced forms), and Savate's around as kick-crazy as TKD by what I know of it. Dunno if you can count Capoiera in too.

Europeans seem to generally have preferred to do their killing with weapons though, and grappling techniques achieved most of the rest well enough. Probably had something to do with the blunt fact most "Western" societies until quite recently were armed to the proverbial teeth at every level, regardless of what the matter was supposed to be.

[Olaf The Great]

Pankration went pretty far along the road of unarmed striking techniques AFAIK (on top of the usual slew of joint lock, strangling techniques, throws, takedowns etc. pretty much every martial tradition everywhere included pretty much by default, and often in rather advanced forms), and Savate's around as kick-crazy as TKD by what I know of it. Dunno if you can count Capoiera in too.

Europeans seem to generally have preferred to do their killing with weapons though, and grappling techniques achieved most of the rest well enough. Probably had something to do with the blunt fact most "Western" societies until quite recently were armed to the proverbial teeth at every level, regardless of what the matter was supposed to be.

Pankration, I remember hearing about it before.

The gastro-something kick with the heel of the foot into the stomach that can break shields(ie This is Sparta, literally) came from Pankration...right :)

[Tellos Athenaios]

Ah, where's Urnamma when you need him.... He could you tell quite a bit about katana's and how they are not superior to other swords.

Nevermind now this daydreaming: the OP wonders about the practice of overhand spear-fighting. We must keep in mind that there is a small but significant difference between martial arts and martial arts. The one used in combat is to be as effective as possible, and not getting yourself killed. Killing the guy opposing you is totally irrelevant, and besides the point (if you are not convinced, I sugges tot try and find statistics of how many soldiers actually aimed during WO2... nevermind now, how many soldiers actually shot...).

The other is more of an art form intent on -basically- showing off how well trained one is...

If we assume both to be the same, then there is also no sense in the Roman fighting techniques: I mean that scutum kinda takes up all the room to manoeuvre. However, since we do not assume this we can easily understand the combination: you hold the scutum frantically in front of you waiting until either the opponent stops stabbing at you or makes a mistake so you can stab at him...

[Watchman]

Ah, where's Urnamma when you need him.... He could you tell quite a bit about katana's and how they are not superior to other swords.

I can fill in if you need me to - I got a lot of practice at that back when I was still hanging out on the D&D official forums. And let's just say I wasn't the only well-read hobbyist there either.

[Sarcasm]

Actually, it would be easy to get use to stabbing with a dori in the over hand style. Practice stabbing like that and you'll get all the endurance you need built up, in those small, rarely trained muscles (there are a lot up in the area connecting the arm to the rest of the body).

I've actually seen something like that Sarcasm. Cept, Katana vs. a Bastard sword. Both were like 3000 dollar swords, the bastard sword broke the Katana after a few blows.

No offense, Sarcasm, but what no weapons martial arts wise are there in the west, besides boxing and wrestling? Now if your including BJJ and Sambo ignore this statement then.

Well first of all you're putting every kind of boxing and wrestling into the same bag, when different regions had different traditions. And I wasn't referring at all to just unarmed martial traditions...staff/spear/polearm fighting techniques in particular were really widespread, and for just two quick examples you have the Jogo Do Pau right here in Portugal or the Bata in Ireland.

[Jolt]

Well first of all you're putting every kind of boxing and wrestling into the same bag, when different regions had different traditions. And I wasn't referring at all to just unarmed martial traditions...staff/spear/polearm fighting techniques in particular were really widespread, and for just two quick examples you have the Jogo Do Pau right here in Portugal or the Bata in Ireland.

Pauliteiros de Mirandela. Bartix worsest dream.

[Spartan198]

I'm staying out of the western-eastern combat techniques debate that appears to be arising here,but IMO the two seperate techniques were developed because they both worked.

As far as the hoplite question,I'm inclined to accept the archeological evidence for dorata being wielded overhand. It just seems like common sense to use it in that manner. I know I wouldn't want that nasty buttspike rammed into my gut or groin.

Besides,classical hoplites just seem to fight better in the overhand style,plus they can charge and seem (at least to me) somewhat more tactically flexible (and Hypaspistai aren't needed to guard the right flank,leaving room for siege artillery!)

[Sarcasm]

People sooooo miss the point. I'm not saying Eastern techniques didn't work. I'm saying Western techniques were just as effective in their own context.

[Dhampir]

Is there really an argument about this?

[Spartan198]

People sooooo miss the point. I'm not saying Eastern techniques didn't work. I'm saying Western techniques were just as effective in their own context.

That's what I said,just worded slightly differently. Both one- and two-handed techniques were adopted because they both work.

Is there really an argument about this?

Maybe 'debate' would have been a better word.

[Watchman]

Mortal combat is a Darwinian enough hobby that techniques, weapons etc. that are no good tend to, well, die out pretty fast. Usually with their adherents too.

[Spartan198]

Mortal combat is a Darwinian enough hobby that techniques, weapons etc. that are no good tend to, well, die out pretty fast. Usually with their adherents too.

Valid point.