Unit Conscription : Corsica and Sardinia

[brymht]

I can't recruit much of anything in the these provinces even as carthaginians, and almost as little as the Romans. Will this be changing in 1.1?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yes, but don't expect it to turn into an Antioch or anything.

[russia almighty]

We going to finally get the warp site for the Filipino auxiliaries?

[General Appo]

This discussion was up a while ago, and dragged on for quite a while with lots of wierd people who claimed lost of wierd things about sheepherds and stuff.
But I´ve got to say, new Sardinian units are one of the number one things that makes me wanna play 1.1. Hopefully it´ll be a local Nuraghi units and not just the added ability to recruit Hoplitai Haploi and Akontistai, but I´ve understand that it´s very hard to know how exactly the Nuraghi fought.
Didn´t one of the guys in that old thread claim that the Nuraghi invaded Egypt and Sicily, and fought with iron swords before iron was discovered and probably visited America and walked on the moon somewhere around 1000 BC?
Nationalism can do crazy stuff to people.

[pezhetairoi]

We've also seen what it can do in the thread where they claimed all Alexander actually did was sit home and write about imaginary exploits in Persia, without actually even doing anything to cross the Bosphorus.

Nationalism is crazy stuff.

[Olaf The Great]

We've also seen what it can do in the thread where they claimed all Alexander actually did was sit home and write about imaginary exploits in Persia, without actually even doing anything to cross the Bosphorus.

Nationalism is crazy stuff.

I still think Scandinavians had guns btw.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We've also seen what it can do in the thread where they claimed all Alexander actually did was sit home and write about imaginary exploits in Persia, without actually even doing anything to cross the Bosphorus.

Nationalism is crazy stuff.

I missed that one.

King Arthur was the greatest warrior ever, btw. Except for Alfred the Great, he could shoot lightning from his ears.

[bovi]

King Arthur was the greatest warrior ever, btw. Except for Alfred the Great, he could shoot lightning from his ears.

Surely one of the best superpowers ever. Searing heat vision go home.

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Yeah, that old thread went 6 ways to Sunday. I tried to keep everybody civil b/c it had the hint of turning into a scholarly discussion. But it more or less turned into nationalistic tirades. (that whole sheep thing was really weird) Sad really. It would have been great to get some informed scholarly new information on some of the digs going on there. But "alack and alas" as the Bard says.

[chairman]

Disciple: I don't know about any sheep or anything, but the idea that sardinians did invade Egypt is actually a partially accepted historical theory. Since it deals with the period of the 12th to 13th centuries BC, most EB members might not be familiar with it. It says that the 'Sea Peoples' who invaded the levent at that time did not come from Greece as was previously thought, but instead from Sardinia, Sicily, Etruria, Corsica and other areas of that region. This is only one of many theories concerning the origins of the Sea Peoples. About the 'iron long swords', most of the stuff that I've read says that they stole iron working from the dying Hittite empire, and that this is how the greater early iron age began. So while Sardinians walking on the moon is ridiculous, some of the other stuff has true merit.

Just thought you guys might be interested.

Cheers!

Chairman

[Watchman]

Errrrr... the last I saw them, the theories didn't go quite like that. (For starters those swords were bronze, albeit getting close to the maximum lenght physically possible.)

[Disciple of Tacitus]

Like I said, " it had the hint of turning into a scholarly discussion". Sometimes threads do, sometimes they don't. The only way to know is to try.

[Visitor13]

I'd love to be able to recruit native Corsican or Sardinian units, even if they were only skirmishers.

BTW, to the OP - you can recruit quite a lot of mercenary Balearic slingers on these islands, and the occasional hoplite phalanx.

[dedalonur9]

This discussion was up a while ago, and dragged on for quite a while with lots of wierd people who claimed lost of wierd things about sheepherds and stuff.
But I´ve got to say, new Sardinian units are one of the number one things that makes me wanna play 1.1. Hopefully it´ll be a local Nuraghi units and not just the added ability to recruit Hoplitai Haploi and Akontistai, but I´ve understand that it´s very hard to know how exactly the Nuraghi fought.
Didn´t one of the guys in that old thread claim that the Nuraghi invaded Egypt and Sicily, and fought with iron swords before iron was discovered and probably visited America and walked on the moon somewhere around 1000 BC?
Nationalism can do crazy stuff to people.

I'm content that you have resumed the argument
and i hope that it can be spoken serenely about the Sardinian warrior


as uselessly i had asked in the old one thread!

i had not read of the iron sword in hand to the shardana in the 1200!

an identical copy to the swords Shardana is found in the museum of Cagliari

it was arsenicated fairy of branch

we must suppose but that many were made of bronze

as far as the sword in iron, null is it tried...in all sense


but we know the sea people before to invade the Egypt they destroyed

the Hittita empire

I have read some scholars that they assume that the shardana was mercenary of the Hittita empire beyond that of that egyptian


the Hittiti ones were draw first to use the iron

[Watchman]

For spears, daggers and such. Prestige items essentially by what I know of it (good sophisticated bronzeworking beats primitive ironworking in end-product performance specs, AFAIK) - the Old Testament puts an iron-tipped spear in the hands of the Philistine champion Goliath. Took a while longer before the metallurgy got good enough to make decent-sized swords...

[dedalonur9]

For spears, daggers and such. Prestige items essentially by what I know of it (good sophisticated bronzeworking beats primitive ironworking in end-product performance specs, AFAIK) - the Old Testament puts an iron-tipped spear in the hands of the Philistine champion Goliath. Took a while longer before the metallurgy got good enough to make decent-sized swords...

it's true!
The Bible Philistine, are identify to you from many scholars with the Pheleset

one of the sea people who together invaded the Egypt, to the Shardana

thi is a statue in bronze, found again in Sardinia, would hatve to represent a Pheleset warrior:





there are the Warrior Pheleset of the Sea People:

[HamilcarBarca]

Even if the Shardana were from Sardinia - and that is an unproven hypothesis as far as both history and archaeology is concerned - you are still talking about the Late Bronze Age (c. 1200 BC).

And that's a long way from our Hellenistic Period.

Native Sardinian units would be recruited from the Nuragic chiefdoms (Nuragic V Period, 500-238 BC) and could be based on seventh and sixth century bronzetti that have been found across the island.

The Monte Prama sculptures date to the seventh century BC and show similar gear.

The Nuragic chiefdoms by 272 BC were certainly using iron technology.





It would be terrific is some realistic Sard (Nuragic) warriors began to inhabit EB Sardinia.

H.

[dedalonur9]

Even if the Shardana were from Sardinia - and that is an unproven hypothesis as far as both history and archaeology is concerned - you are still talking about the Late Bronze Age (c. 1200 BC).

And that's a long way from our Hellenistic Period.

H.

hi!
sure, but between Shardana and Nuragic warrior many things are similar: the sword, the shield, even the skirt

I have spoken for first about this hypothesis why it is a way in order to understand like could fight.

however still i have not found ine studious totally contrary to this hypothesis, they divide themselves in those who think such hypothesis possible, and those who is convinced some

Native Sardinian units would be recruited from the Nuragic chiefdoms (Nuragic V Period, 500-238 BC) and could be based on seventh and sixth century bronzetti that have been found across the island.

The Nuragic chiefdoms by 272 BC were certainly using iron technology.
H.

I agree on the fact that in III A.c. century used the iron

but the Sardinian revolts last at least until to the first period of the Empire

[SPOIL]The Monte Prama sculptures date to the seventh century BC and show similar gear.
H.

GIANTS PRAMA the mount must still be dated to carbon 14, hypotheses are that they have been ,ade between IX and VII century B.C.

Giant Prama they are made in the style Abini (not Uta), like this:



and your second pics

bye

[Barry Soteiro]

I'm happy to see some infantry for the nuraghi in EB 1.1. Will next version feature some cavalry ?

[dedalonur9]

I'm happy to see some infantry for the nuraghi in EB 1.1. Will next version feature some cavalry ?

I hope. From Askos is gone, from the Sardinian traditions like l' Ardia, and from a bronzetto, turns out that the Sardinians went to horse. in the bronzetti also a chariot-war is represented.

I have seen the for the first time; "Shardanam"


and I have some questions.....

1) it is mistaken to write that the Sardinians did not have armor. in bronzetti the Uta style an armor can be seen rectangular, used also from the Etruschi. probably it was of bronze.



2) the nuragici used moreover Greave and horned Helmet........... always

3) we do not have Nuragic warrior armed with Spear, but only with bow, sword, and sling.the spear only appears to Medinet abu in the hands of the Shardana. we can only suppose they used that it....

4) the long sword was capacity places side by side to the quiver, for being able to use the bow.

5) the shield was of leather layers with metal plates probably bronze or copper, with shield boss to the center.......

6) the bow was double curved in the majority of the statues.

it has been noticed that when the Sardinians have short bow, possesses also sword and shield. other times appear with very longest bow without sword of it shield but however with the armor

watching the statues the typical crews of the Sardinians are alwaysthe bow, the sword, the shield, and the armour. therefore equipment of the Sardinian soldier was more similar to this image taken from E.B.



the more late kardiophilax, it will come replaced from armors in leather studded, made of bronze or copper. The sutds were rectangular or round.




I would want to signal also an other small error: Lilibeo (in Sicily) had been fortified with high and imposing wall from the Punics.
in fact the Roman never did not succeed to conquer it with l' siege

[Zarax]

It's good to see the subject brought up again, let's hope that we can keep the discussion into realistic realms this time.
Unfortunately the amount of published research about Nuragic military is very scarce, especially when it comes to the punic/roman period.

The most conservative scholars tend to agree about a few things:

- Nuragic tribes on the coast (except part of modern Gallura) and south Sardinia were pretty much absorbed into the punic military, using mostly imported equipment with some etruscan remnants/copies and the rare greek element here and there.

- More conservative tribes in the interior (like the Balares) used basically iron versions of the old bronze age panoplies (we're talking about the well-off warriors), bows and long daggers. Apparently there is a well preserved iron panoply waiting to be published in some museum storage in Cagliari dated around the mercenary war, where Nuragics briefly controlled most of the island as the carthaginians were busy with bigger problems.

- It also appears that some tribes in the east were heavily influenced by the balearics in fighting style but infos are not very clear around that subject.

[Dutchhoplite]

In one of the Roma Surrectum previews i saw one of the these units. Looked pretty good too ...

[dedalonur9]

In one of the Roma Surrectum previews i saw one of the these units. Looked pretty good too ...

please link.....

X Zarax.....

I hope also that we can keep the discussion into realistic realms this time.

But in order to make it you must keep in mind who many news on the history of the Sardinia is controversial

not only on the Shardana....

also the punic presence in Sardinia is debate object. the first takeover would be that one of Sirai Mount, but the archaeological report A.c. goes back alone 300 A.c..

the treaty between Rome and Cartagine (that it assigns the Sardinia to Cartagine 509 A.c.) described from Polibio would be inexact...

this is only an example..... when they are cited historical news it is easy to exit off topic...



you have photo or news of the Panoply (Nuragica) , in iron conserved to the museum of Cagliari?

to me it seems that strange of the crews in iron they are committees until to our days… quite conserved well!
it is not a case that the only found again crews are in copper or bronze....
in the West the Chinese technique was not known in order to prevent oxidation of the iron, not even in Sardinia, in which the metallurgy is very ancient....

you can also cite the sources to me to which you make reference? I do not want to make controversy but to document to me…

in any case the Sardinians introduced themselves armed until to the teeth to the Roman leave… it to suppose Tito Livio when he says that after the defeat of Ampsicora the Roman made great bonfires of dead soldiers and crews…

I doubt that however these crews were of Punic type…moreover we remember ourselves that the Cartaginesi copied very from the Greeks for which does not have much sense to speak about crews of Punico type

I have seen a Helmet equal to that one of the panoply of Dendera. the swords are similar to those Mycenae and those shardana of medinet Abu

[Zarax]

please link.....
you have photo or news of the Panoply (Nuragica) , in iron conserved to the museum of Cagliari?
to me it seems that strange of the crews in iron they are committees until to our days… quite conserved well!
it is not a case that the only found again crews are in copper or bronze....
in the West the Chinese technique was not known in order to prevent oxidation of the iron, not even in Sardinia, in which the metallurgy is very ancient....
you can also cite the sources to me to which you make reference? I do not want to make controversy but to document to me…

I wish I could be more precise, I was told about the existence of this panoply by A. Zara, who worked as technician with Dr. Lilliu on the Mt. Sirai and Nora excavations.
I've been trying to get pictures of this for over a year but no success so far, all I know about it is that it's supposed to be a punic wars era replica of a late bronze age panoply.

I doubt that however these crews were of Punic type…moreover we remember ourselves that the Cartaginesi copied very from the Greeks for which does not have much sense to speak about crews of Punico type

I agree with you on that, when I said punic/greek I mean who it was supposed to be imported from rather than the style in itself.


About controversy, I just like to have hard evidency of what we're talking about... No matter how much I love my homeland I'd rather be able to say "nuragics did this and that" with evidence rather than having some less solid theory about ancient grandeur...
After all, being able to show the huge amount of effort it took the romans to subjugate the island to me is a testament of the strenght of the nuragic people...

[dedalonur9]

I wish I could be more precise, I was told about the existence of this panoply by A. Zara, who worked as technician with Dr. Lilliu on the Mt. Sirai and Nora excavations.
I've been trying to get pictures of this for over a year but no success so far, all I know about it is that it's supposed to be a punic wars era replica of a late bronze age panoply.

Ok
I will try to find some information s this panoplea. If it has been found to Nora, the most ancient Sardinian city, could also be nuragica, as Nora and Sulki were (perhaps) the cities that more will resist to the Punic
to Mt. Sirai came for l' last defeated time l' cartaginese army of Malco, or second some of Imicolne. therefore all it can be

I agree with you on that, when I said punic/greek I mean who it was supposed to be imported from rather than the style in itself.

About controversy, I just like to have hard evidency of what we're talking about... No matter how much I love my homeland I'd rather be able to say "nuragics did this and that" with evidence rather than having some less solid theory about ancient grandeur...
After all, being able to show the huge amount of effort it took the romans to subjugate the island to me is a testament of the strenght of the nuragic people...

they are in general terms agreement with you.... it must distinguish case for case
at least l' hypothesis on the shardana I think goes as an example made...something on their way to fight at least is described: it is a way in order to try to understand us more…

[Dutchhoplite]

please link.....

I'm not entirely sure if this is allowed but this is Roma Surrectums version of the Corsico-Sardinian archer:



And the statuettes it's based upon:

[dedalonur9]

thousands thanks Duthc!

this version much more is corrected than that than E.b.

there are details that but go reviews:

1) in Sardinia never it has not been found the Iberian falcata one in the hands of your model. The Sardinian swords are much similar to the swords of the celtiums. these of continuation are examples of swords found again in Sardinia. you can recognize them also in the third statue that you have inserted




t has been then found the sword from the Shardana but it has a too much archaic form. creed did not come used in the 300 A.c. but I cannot too much be sure not even of this....The sardinian warfare is more conservative...

the sword as already said capacity in the back came (like the samurai.... ) ...near the quiver....
therefore they did not carry the Kardiophilax in the back....

2) the shield was hung to a rope...and the boss-shield it was much more to tip, was not thus round . it was an ulterior arm from tip. they did not make of the shield a passive use like the Greek oplithai ones.




an other type of Sardinian archer






in the hand in which it does not hold nothing probably had an other arm, than it cannot be other that a sword
also this warrior has an armor...

[dedalonur9]

continuous from this argument
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...68#post1975468

I have not understood the link mammuttones-cavalry. the mammuttones they are a rituale mask.

according to me the figure of the askos that I have mailed to you, and the bronzet that you can see in the book of Angela Demontis they speak by themselves.

in both bronzet the knights are in feet. this means that those horses are enough sturdy from being able to carry a man. in the vase askos that I have mailed to you, the knight has helmet and a round shield.

if who identifies the Sardinians with the shardana she has reason (Drews, Ugas) then can itself be assumed that the Sardinians have imported the horses from war East.

if however, it seems as me to understand, you are not in agreement with the Shardana=sardi theory, it prevents us to what to think that the horse is joined in Sardinia a lot before the Punic and of the Roman. as an example with Sardus (that is Libyan populations) or with Norace (Iberian populations)?

if you are Sardinian as you make to say then that the island is not apt to ride and to use the cavalry in war?

perhaps it is a valid speech for the Corsica but not for the Sardinia, where the plains zones exist.....

you can say at last from what deduces that It knows sartiglia has been imported from the Moors who we have always defeated and they have not never dominated to us?

I knew that it was a ritual legacy to the fertility, one of the many. these rituals much more probably are than Nuragic origin being that civilization peasant.

[Zarax]

Dedalonur, as clearly english is not your mother tongue (mine either) so if you want I can use italian to avoid misunderstandings (in that case I will provide translation for the rest of the forum).

1) My referral to mamuthones was not about cavalry but rather to infantry. I'm not saying that mamuthones were the ancient warriors but only that their appearance could be similar to them as they were referred as Sardi Peliti.

2) As I find the Shardana theory not useable in this context all I'm saying is that there might have been a few Nuragic heavy cavalrymen but those used most likely horses imported through the punics and were restricted to few nobles, something like general's cavalry in RTW. This makes them unviable as separate unit although it could justify the ability to recruit some civic carthaginian units in Sardinia (where the southern tribes were usually integrated in other units rather than being used on their own style anyway).
I'm aware that Sardinia has plains (Campidano) but again, the native horses were too light for any effective kind of heavy cavalry.

3) Sa Sartiglia: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sartiglia not imported but influenced.

Once more: While I approve the effort to improve the historical accuracy of Nuragic warfare in EB I must remind you that their implementing standards requires much more time focused sources than theories on the Shardana.
If you live in Sardinia it would be way easier for you to find good books and other material about 3rd century BC than for me.

[dedalonur9]

Dedalonur, as clearly english is not your mother tongue (mine either) so if you want I can use italian to avoid misunderstandings (in that case I will provide translation for the rest of the forum).

1) My referral to mamuthones was not about cavalry but rather to infantry. I'm not saying that mamuthones were the ancient warriors but only that their appearance could be similar to them as they were referred as Sardi Peliti.

2) As I find the Shardana theory not useable in this context all I'm saying is that there might have been a few Nuragic heavy cavalrymen but those used most likely horses imported through the punics and were restricted to few nobles, something like general's cavalry in RTW. This makes them unviable as separate unit although it could justify the ability to recruit some civic carthaginian units in Sardinia (where the southern tribes were usually integrated in other units rather than being used on their own style anyway).
I'm aware that Sardinia has plains (Campidano) but again, the native horses were too light for any effective kind of heavy cavalry.

3) Sa Sartiglia: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sartiglia not imported but influenced.

Once more: While I approve the effort to improve the historical accuracy of Nuragic warfare in EB I must remind you that their implementing standards requires much more time focused sources than theories on the Shardana.
If you live in Sardinia it would be way easier for you to find good books and other material about 3rd century BC than for me.

make excuses myself for my English, above all when I write in a hurry, gets worse.

ask myself because not to use the theory on the shardana. above all in this case it is useful...

however Lilliu that you perhaps know (for who it did not know it: it is the more important studious than nuragic civilization), asserts that the horse was introduced in Sardinia between the 1400 A.c and the 1200,1000 A.c. How much said is brought back in a review CADDOS
in Sardinia to those times still not the Phoenician were of the Punic

the punic will make their appearance in sardinia more late much. the first archaeological find ones go back to the 320, 350 A.c. (Sirai mount)

when Lilliu asserts that the horses were introduced in Sardinia, obviously do not speak you about the horses of the Giara which you refer.....