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Thread: Materia Celtica

  1. #1
    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Materia Celtica

    1 - Personal Names for Britons and Goidels

    I don't really understand exactly how the names file works, but I can see it contains some odd things, mainly left over from vanilla RTW. Modern Welsh is mixed up with Latin (in one or two cases the same name appears in Welsh and Latin forms) and some incorrect material was added.

    Here are some attested names of Britons, some "re-Celticised" from Latin:
    Male: Addedomaros Antedios Caratacos Cingetorixs Cogidubnos Cunobelinos Cunomoltos Diras Dumnoceveros Epaticcu Epillos Esuprastos Iovir Lugotorixs Tincomarus Vellocatus Volisios Vosenios

    and here are some more from coins where the name was abbreviated. In two cases it's obvious what the full name was, in others they're educated guesses:
    Bodvocavaros Cartivellaunos Coriovanos Dumnovellaunos

    Heree are names I made up out of known Celtic elements. I noted a tendency (only a tendency, not a hard and fast rule) in giving men names to do with people, animals and physical attributes ("Warrior King", "Hound of Battle", "Girth like Esus") whereas in women names to do with locations and ideas ("Victory", "White Path") I've reflected this (possible) tendency in the elements I've chosen.
    Male: Boudisser Catacodantos Catugratios Corcagnos Cumovallos Cunogustus Cunomaros Domacos Dornoduros Ennatomaros Glunomaros Hariovellaunos Inogustus Lugetios Orbogarios Orbogenos Ordovallos Penaxtovaros Rocrimoteros Rounos Senacos Slougorixs Tardovicos Teytorixs Teytovallos Tigernacos Ulcagnos Vidogidas Vodvodanos

    Female (only 3 or 4 are atttested): Aiduabu Boudicca Boudivena Brigantognatis Brivobriga Cartimandu Casnavinda Catubrana Cistuvinda Coriocruta Cunoarda Dervagnata Dinudragina Hedennoprista Lavenia Leyca Lugra Matumerca Romelisti Salia Saliariganis Samoriganis Senovara Sitostarna Fravoduba Teytariganis Verctissa Vicopillima Vindosibra

    Now surnames - what we have from inscriptions suggests that Britons used two surnames; a patronymic and a tribal name, so if you were Vosenios from the Iceni and your father was Epillos, your full name would be *Vosenios Epilli Icenos. Recycling some names with the genitive case and adding a tribe, we could have: Addedomari Cassos; Antedioi Cantiacos; Carataci Cassos;
    Cingetorigos Demeti; Cogidubni Cassos; Cunobelini Trinovants; Dirâs Cassos; Dumnoceveri Brigants; Epaticcous Cassos; Epilli Cornovios; Esuprasti Cassos; Ioveros Silur; Lugotorigos Cassos; Tincomarous Icenos; Vellocati Cassos; Volisioi Parisos; Vosenioi Cassos


    I've assumed half the names will belong to the Casse/Cassi, the rest to other tribes.

    That's all for the Britons. Liberties I've taken - I've assumed the proto-Celtic *&#216;- was still pronounced as /h/ in Brythonic and Irish. Carlos Jordan Colera notes that PIE *eu eventually became u in Brythonic, so I've assumed fronting happened before levelling and changed Gaulish ou < *eu into ey, with the Y meant to represent an &#252; sound. I've also speculated that -ntes tribal names were dental stems.

    Here are some early Irish names; a mixture of names from the Ogham inscriptions and reconstructed forms of modern Irish names - all male, I don't think we need Eleutheroi females(?) : Actos Alattos Breswalas Brocagnas Ceranas Cunacamas Cunalegas Dumnowalas Glannanas Glasicu Irccitos Ivagenos Lugnas Lugudeccs Neitslas Qasignias Tigernacas Uorgos
    (in there are the ancient forms of the Irish names Breasal, Brocc&#225;n, Domhnal, Eoghan, Niall and Tighearn&#225;n)

    On the Ogham inscriptions, second names are simple patronymics or else in the form MAQI MUCOI (of the son of the tribe of...) hence: Maqas Breswali; Maqas Cerani; Maqas Cunalegi; Maqas Dumnowali; Maqas Glasiconi; Maqas Ivageni; Maqas Lugni; Maqas Mucoi Ebdana; Maqas Mucoi Gangana; Maqas Mucoi Iwerna; Maqas Mucoi Robogda; Maqas Mucoi Wolunta; Maqas Qasigni; Maqas Tigernaci

    There's no Q or W in Irish now, of course, but Q is the value of an Ogham letter and it's generally acknowledged that W became F in the 7th Century.
    Caveat - even the Ogham inscriptions are 500 years after the EB timeline.

    Some useful web sources
    A list of Celtic roots here: http://www.wales.ac.uk/documents/ext...cs/MoE-PCl.pdf
    A list of Romano-British names here: http://www.asnc.cam.ac.uk/personalnames/
    Gaulish & Brythonic names analysed here (in French): http://www.arbre-celtique.com/encycl...iques-3630.htm

    Next I'll focus on Gaulish and Celtiberian names. It gets a bit complicated...

    EDIT: I've mistakenly put a couple of Irish names in the genitive.
    Last edited by Elmetiacos; 05-24-2008 at 18:00.
    'you owe it to that famous chick general whose name starts with a B'
    OILAM TREBOPALA INDI PORCOM LAEBO INDI INTAM PECINAM ELMETIACUI

  2. #2
    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Actually, should I move this to the "EB Unofficial Mods" sub-forum?
    And spot my mistake in the Irish names...
    'you owe it to that famous chick general whose name starts with a B'
    OILAM TREBOPALA INDI PORCOM LAEBO INDI INTAM PECINAM ELMETIACUI

  3. #3

    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    This looks like a good start and something useful

    I must warn you that I have not changed Germanic character names, even when innacurate, because the scripts and desc_strat refer to them and can screw up- so keep this in mind... traits are another story, since they have a text file in the data/text which uses internal names separately... similarly the other text files can be editted.
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 03-30-2008 at 19:14.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    2 - Personal Names for Gauls & Celtiberians

    This post deals with Gaulish and Celtiberian personal names. There are lots of Gaulish names written down, so there's no need to resort to inventing any from hypothetical Celtic roots. Once again L'Arbre Celtique is a good online source.

    Gaulish (male) names taken from coins:
    Abucatos Acutios Alaucos Annicoios Atectorixs Cantorixs Casios Cattos Cisiambos Contoutos Diasulos Ducomaros Durnacos Elcesovixs Epênos Exobnos Maupennos Orcetirixs Togirixs Turonos

    More coin names, but these are from Pannonia. I know EB has this region as Celtic, but I don't know whether it's been given its own language. If not, these names can be mixed up with the main (French) Gaulish ones - or used for Galatians? :
    Adnamatos Ainorixs Biatecus Bussumarus Cobisovomarus Cobrovomarus Coviomarus Iantomarus

    More Gaulish names from other inscriptions (a few may be "Lepontic") I've tried to avoid ones from Latin inscriptions, lest they be too Romanised.
    Male:
    Adgennorixs Aððedilos Aicuvindos Acisios Alcuinios Anarevisios Andecamulos Aneunos Andocombogios Aricanos Attaiorixs Belgos Bellatorixs Blandovicu Boios Bonnorixs Bratronos Bristas Caliodubnos Camulogenos Cassitalos Catumocus Circos Comios Corisios Cunorixs Dagorixs Dobnoredos Doiros Drutos Dumnomotos Eluscu Escanecotos Escengolatos Esopnos Giapos Iccavos Illanuios Ioincorixs Ivorixs Labrios Latumaros Litumaros Maclonos Magalos Magiorixs Missucos Mogunos Nantonios Oclos Ogrigenos Onnos Orgetorixs Otiorixs Rextugenos Rianorixs Ritacos Samognatios Samoricos Saunos Sedagisamos Segomaros Sentubogios Silus Sintorixs Sosimilos Tancorixs Tanotalos Tabetiscos Tascos Tincorixs Tôtanorixs Tôtissos Vlidorixs Varsileos Vebrumaros Versuos Veretomaros Versios Vindios Vonatorixs Vrittacos

    These three are Pannoian, as above -
    Adginnos Andebrocirixs Eliomarus

    Female:
    Abdugisse Adiega Aia Aleastumara Argentâ Asmina Atebodua Bennuca Bodiaca Camulognata Cintugena Congonna Derceia Devognata Divogna Eppa Escinga Iantuna Magana Matugena Nemetogena Nitiogena Oxidubna Ritumara Roveta Sapsuta Suadilia Suadugena Tincomara Venimara Vixuvionna Vlatucia

    Gaulish surnames are complicated. They are patronymics, but it's not as simple as just taking the genitive case of the father's name. There are 8 patronymic suffixes; -ios, -iai, -iacos, -icnos, -icna, -eos, -ia and -ea. But nowhere can I find exactly how you match each one to a given name. I had a transcript of Karin Stüber's presentation Effects of Language Contact on Roman & Gaulish Personal Names for the 13th ICCS and now it seems to have vanished from the Web... Bah. They seem to be masculine and feminine but RTW women don't get surnames, so this leaves us -ios, -iacos, -icnos, -eos. The only thing I can do is assign -ios to -os endings, -iacos to -ios endings, -icnos to -ixs endings and -eos to any others. I bet this isn't what the Gauls did at all, but I'm at a loss. This gives us the following as Gaulish surnames:
    Adgennoricnos Aicuvindios Alcuiniacos Andecamulios Aricanios Attaioricnos Belgios Blandoviceos Boiacos Bratronios Bristeos Camulogenios Cassitalios Circios Comiacos Cunoricnos Dobnoredios Drutios Elusceos Escanecotios Esopnios Giapios Iccavios Ivoricnos Latumarios Maclonios Magioricnos Mogunios Oclios Onnios Otioricnos Rianoricnos Samognatiacos Saunios Segomarios Sileos Sosimilios Tanotalios Tascios Totanoricnos Vebrumarios Versiacos Vindiacos Vrittacios

    Now onto the Celtiberians. Fortunately, this lot are Eleutheroi and so don't need many names. Carlos Jordan Colera's Celtiberian grammar is a must-have and should be downloadable from E-Keltoi. It is a really good summary of what's known so far, written only last year. Warning - this is a really technical
    paper for linguists (or at least language nerds like me...)
    Names: Bistiros Buntalos Guandos Irorekios Kambarinos Kilikos Letuikos Lubos Monitukos Namaios Nertobriks Rektugenos Sekilakos Tritanos Tullos

    Surnames seem to be related to tribes or towns, although patronymics sometimes appear as well:
    Abulokum Alizokum Atulikum Buntunes Lastiko Letontunos Obios Sekilakos Setantunos Veniakum Visalikum

    Rektugenos - almost the same as the Gaulish name, above...
    Setantunos - if this is a name, adherents of a particular theory of Irish history will love it.


    Lots of Celtiberian inscriptions seem to be love tokens, so we probably have more female than male names recorded. Which is no good to EB.
    'you owe it to that famous chick general whose name starts with a B'
    OILAM TREBOPALA INDI PORCOM LAEBO INDI INTAM PECINAM ELMETIACUI

  5. #5

    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    [sttupid me] bleh
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 03-31-2008 at 05:10.
    HWÆT !
    “Vesall ertu þinnar skjaldborgar!” “Your shieldwall is pathetic!” -Bǫðvar Bjarki [Hrólfs Saga Kraka]
    “Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl þonne his ellen déah.” “The course of events often saves the un-fey warrior if his valour is good.” -Bēowulf
    “Gørið eigi hárit í blóði.” “Do not get blood on [my] hair.” -Sigurð Búason to his executioner [Óláfs Saga Tryggvasonar: Heimskringla]

    Wes þū hāl ! Be whole (with luck)!

  6. #6
    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    [B][SIZE="4"]Surnames seem to be related to tribes or towns, although patronymics sometimes appear as well:
    Abulokum Alizokum Atulikum Buntunes Lastiko Letontunos Obios Sekilakos Setantunos Veniakum Visalikum

    Rektugenos - almost the same as the Gaulish name, above...
    Setantunos - if this is a name, adherents of a particular theory of Irish history will love it.


    Lots of Celtiberian inscriptions seem to be love tokens, so we probably have more female than male names recorded. Which is no good to EB.
    I actually already have most of the names you have here, from the botorrita plates, under different transliterations on the current EB version. Some of these last you posted, the ones that end in -kum are most definitely identifying clans or tribes, not towns (not in the strict sense anyway), while those that end in -nos/-os/-s aren't necessarily patronymics, even though I assumed they were in my work just the same.

    There's quite a few ceramics that bear marks of ownership too, so there's probably more than enough male names for the Celtiberians, but not the case for females which I'm always lacking.
    Last edited by Sarcasm; 03-31-2008 at 02:37.



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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Fem suffix on a male name and just toss in the prefix for 'daughter of?' Or maybe leave the Fem part off altogether???
    Last edited by cmacq; 03-31-2008 at 06:16.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Yeah! Sarcasm and *pronounces slowly* Elmetiacos!

    Two guys who know Iberian stuff! In the same thread! You (the collective you) have made my weekend. Now questions (of the simple sort)...

    From Elmetiacos...
    Carlos Jordan Colera's Celtiberian grammar is a must-have and should be downloadable from E-Keltoi.
    Ok. will look into that. Thanks. Is it ... free ... ?

    From Sarcasm...
    I actually already have most of the names you have here, from the botorrita plates, under different transliterations on the current EB version.
    Can I infer, Sir, that you have had a hand in the naming of the various Lusotanni (sp) FMs? If so, where would I find a list of the family names so as to create a workable "ruling tribes" spreadsheet for my upcoming campaign.

    And ... as I have not yet purchased your last 2 book suggestions (one of them was $100+ !!) where do you rate Antonio Arribas' "The Iberians". I am currently reading it. I believe it to be horribly dated (aka - old), but perhaps a good foundation for a budding Ibero-History buff.

    Much thanks!
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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Eek! I don't know much Celtiberian stuff at all!

    I wondered if the Lusitanians might use some Celtiberian names... What have been discovered are lots of little bronze animals with the inscription "KAR" and someone's name, often a woman, although it can be a whole town or tribe. This element is usually translated as "friendship". Colera also speculates that Abaliu and Sleitiu could be feminine names. Here are some "KAR" token names but I don't know if they're actually women:
    Arkailika Atikika Eliaka Ikurbika Kateraikina Koitina Libiaka Oilaunika Okelaka Routaikina Virouaka Uskika Ventana
    'you owe it to that famous chick general whose name starts with a B'
    OILAM TREBOPALA INDI PORCOM LAEBO INDI INTAM PECINAM ELMETIACUI

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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    3 - Buildings

    Tentative names for buildings, first in Gaulish then Brythonic and what the name literally means. Most are reconstructions (guesswork!) on my part or someone else's:

    Governor's Villa Dategos/Dategos (meeting house)
    High King's Hold Marodategos/Marodategos (big meeting house)
    Royal Household Maglodategos Vlidamaros/Maglodategos Vledamaros (mighty meeting house of great feasts)

    Wooden Pallisade Uxsellocagis/Uxsellocagis (high up fence)
    Wooden Walls Dunovallos/Dunovallos (fortress wall)
    Stone Walls Artuvallos eti Cagis/Artuvallos eti Cagis (stone wall plus fence) (murus Gallicus)

    Muster Field Magos Sl&#244;gi/Magos Slougi (field of the army)
    Militia Barracks Marodategos Sl&#244;gi/Marodategos Slougi (big meeting house of the army)
    City Barracks & Army Barracks I'm not sure what these do - can anyone help?

    Festival (of some sort) Vlida T&#244;tas/Vleda Teytas (feast of the tribe)
    Regional Games Vlida Comrogion/Vleda Combrogion (feast of fellow-countrymen)

    Blacksmith Gobanos/Gobanos (smith)
    Merchant (still working on this... there must be a word...)
    Market Argentomagos/Argantomagos (silver field > market - Gaulish placename)
    Forum Magos Alatos/Magos Alatos (many coloured field)

    Port Canos/Canos (harbour)
    Shipwright Canos Elulonganon/Canos Helulonganon (harbour of many ships)
    Shipyard Marocanos Alatolonganon/Marocanos Alatolonganon (big harbour of many-coloured ships)

    Sewers G&#234;tues/Gaitues (channels*) or Tegos Sapoparicon/Tegos Sapoparicon (soap-makers' house)
    Did the Celts invent soap? I don't know either...
    *my own reconstruction, especially dodgy.

    Baths Lovantri/Lovantroi (baths)

    Roads Mantali/Mantaloi (paths)
    Paved Roads - do they get them?

    Farming Gnutomagses/Gnutomagses (crop fields)
    Farming +1 Magses Comari/Magses Comaroi (fields of joint ploughing)

    Mine M&#234;nocladis/Mainocladis (mine)

    Field of Games Vor&#234;magos/Huoraimagos (game field)
    Town Garrison Tegos Ariani/Tegos Harianoi (house of guards)
    Tavern Tegos Largolamion/Tegos Largolamion (house of the generous hand - thanks to cmacq)
    Bardic Circle Dategos Bardon/Dategos Bardon (meeting house of bards)

    Shrine Aricelos/Haricelos (sanctuary)
    Temple Nemeton/Nemeton (holy place)
    Large Temple Ariosos/Hariosos (temple {building})
    Awesome Temple Ariosos Brigantos/Hariosos Brigantos (high temple)
    Without knowing what gods and goddesses are supposed to do what in the game, I can't yet assign any. Also, Celtic deities didn't really have such well defined roles as the Roman or Greek ones. They could be substituted with the Interpretatio Romana but it might not be too accurate.

    Academy Tegos Vor-Canatli/Tegos Vor-Canatli (house of teaching/learning)
    Scriptorium Dategos Druidon/Dategos Druidon (druid meeting house)
    Ludus Magnus Nemetodunon Druidon agos V&#226;tion/Nemetodunon Druiton agos Vailites (holy citadel of druids and seers)

    Doctor Tegos Iacc&#226;s/Tegos Iacc&#226;s (house of health/curing)
    Hospital Dategos Iaccanom/Dategos Iaccanon (meeting house of cures)

    Granary Grannobotos/Grannobotos (grain hut)
    Grain Silo Grannobotos Maros/Grannobotos Maros (big grain hut)

    Shipwright Longaparicos/Longaparicos (ship maker)
    Naval Bay Coriolongaticom/Coriolongaticon (Gaulish place name + corio- "army")
    River Port Abonatiom/Abonatiom (river division)

    Hero Cult Shrine - Cavaronemeton/Cavaronemeton (hero holy place) very Greek, not very Celtic

    Government Types
    Military Feeder Vlata Agromagesos/Vlata Agromagesos (authority of the battlefield)
    Type I Cont&#244;ti/Comteyti (kinsmen) part of your tribe
    Type II C&#234;liot&#244;ta Constata/Cailioteyta Comstata (client-tribe of equal standing) confederates and close allies
    Type III C&#234;liot&#244;ta Vassoni/Cailioteyta Vassoni (client tribe of servants) enfiefed tribe
    Type IV Allomores Vocelati/Allomores Vocelati (protected foreigners) conquered foreign region

    Any comments welcome.
    EDIT - I forgot *magos is an S stem
    Last edited by Elmetiacos; 04-03-2008 at 17:04.
    'you owe it to that famous chick general whose name starts with a B'
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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    After a very quick review...

    ...sweet!!!

    Altough...

    would Dunuceta Exartunos work, for Murus Gallicus?
    Last edited by cmacq; 04-01-2008 at 04:08.
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    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    Eek! I don't know much Celtiberian stuff at all!

    I wondered if the Lusitanians might use some Celtiberian names... What have been discovered are lots of little bronze animals with the inscription "KAR" and someone's name, often a woman, although it can be a whole town or tribe. This element is usually translated as "friendship". Colera also speculates that Abaliu and Sleitiu could be feminine names. Here are some "KAR" token names but I don't know if they're actually women:
    Arkailika Atikika Eliaka Ikurbika Kateraikina Koitina Libiaka Oilaunika Okelaka Routaikina Virouaka Uskika Ventana
    This is actually a subject that I would love to have the time to pursue, and will be further addressed in EB2. I was a real rookie at the time I made the lists, so hopefully they'll turn out much better this time around. Frankly I'm a little unwilling to accept some of Colera's conclusions, I think he takes a few leaps of faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disciple of Tacitus
    Yeah! Sarcasm and *pronounces slowly* Elmetiacos!

    Two guys who know Iberian stuff! In the same thread! You (the collective you) have made my weekend. Now questions (of the simple sort)...

    From Elmetiacos...

    Ok. will look into that. Thanks. Is it ... free ... ?

    From Sarcasm...

    Can I infer, Sir, that you have had a hand in the naming of the various Lusotanni (sp) FMs? If so, where would I find a list of the family names so as to create a workable "ruling tribes" spreadsheet for my upcoming campaign.

    And ... as I have not yet purchased your last 2 book suggestions (one of them was $100+ !!) where do you rate Antonio Arribas' "The Iberians". I am currently reading it. I believe it to be horribly dated (aka - old), but perhaps a good foundation for a budding Ibero-History buff.

    Much thanks!
    'ere ya go mate. It's a relatively well know e-keltoi article.

    http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekelt...ordan_6_17.pdf

    On the book, old is not always a bad thing. In fact sometimes you find stuff that has fallen of the face of the earth since then...on this one in specific, it's not really that old (1963, I think?), and it's a good book actually especially for it's price. Like most all-encompassing books though, it lacks details - which is ok, if you don't want anything more than a thorough introduction.
    Last edited by Sarcasm; 04-01-2008 at 04:17.



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    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    Roads Mantali/Mantaloi (paths)
    Paved Roads - do they get them?
    Aedui and Averni can construct paved roads, but the Casse cannot.
    Last edited by Ludens; 04-01-2008 at 12:25.
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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    would Dunuceta Exartunos work, for Murus Gallicus?
    I'm not sure about that... Fortress- forest? On the stone?
    'you owe it to that famous chick general whose name starts with a B'
    OILAM TREBOPALA INDI PORCOM LAEBO INDI INTAM PECINAM ELMETIACUI

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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    I'm not sure about that... Fortress- forest? On the stone?

    Dunuceta Exartunos

    Fort-wood/cet/cait from/made of?-stone?

    or Artunes of-stone
    Last edited by cmacq; 04-01-2008 at 17:38.
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    Member Member Metalstrm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    You guys are well informed on the subject! Congrats!

    It's nice to see people collaborating...
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens
    Aedui and Averni can construct paved roads, but the Casse cannot.
    Thanks! In that case:
    Paved Roads Artusl&#234;bon Litanon/ -- (broad stone road)

    Now for a merchant... I've found a root *prin- which has to do with buying, selling and exchange of goods (modern Welsh prynu) and another, *gworteka- which is something like a unit of exchange. We could choose what's on the face of it sort of tautological *vortecoprinikos (exchanger of exchangable stuff) or a simpler *prinikos (buyer/seller) or yet another "house" one, Tegos Prinimas (house of exchange).

    I also need to correct the Brythonic Druides to Druites and there's a Magos up there somewhere which should be in italics and isn't.

    A few additional notes on my choices:
    With that plural, I'm making an assumption. We have a few British tribes with names ending in -ntes. We also have an example of a singluar Brigans. This could be just following Latin grammar, but what if it's also a Latinisation of a Brythonic singular *Brigants? This would mean the Britons had a slightly different plural of dental stem nouns from the Gauls: -tes and not -des. I went with that just to make their language a bit different. It could be wrong!
    A couple of other things I've not yet dealt with are the reason for that Aztec-looking Hu- in Brythonic for a Gaulish V- in the Field of Games and difference between Gaulish *&#234; and Brythonic *ai. The first one is simply because the modern Welsh is chwarae, suggesting a voiceless hw- sound at the start of the word. Hw looked too Germanic. In Gaulish, we know sound changes occurred during the EB period and ei was reduced to a long e (&#234;). But in Brythonic ei appears as wy in Welsh (*neito- > nwyd, *meino- > mwyn) suggesting the reduction didn't happen, but instead there was a back formation *ei > *oi. *ai represents a halfway point. Vled- vs. Vlid- is based on an i > e sound shift in insular Celtic but not in Gaulish.
    Last edited by Elmetiacos; 04-01-2008 at 19:36.
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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    4 - The Celtic Map

    Some names don't really need changing at all and others just need grammatical corrections; a lot of towns' names can easily be re-Celticised by changing the -um to -on. This ending is quite common. Some names are taken from Kenneth Jackson's suggested names for the Ordnance Survey Map of Southern Britain in the Iron Age.

    Map Regions

    Amoriae Arimorica
    Batromorgan Bituvlata ("World Dominion"? Bituriges country)
    Bellavecaea Belgae Tirri Nessubelganom ("Lands of the Near Belgae")
    Brigantiae Vlata Brigantom ("Domain of the Brigantes")
    Caledryn Caladonion
    Cambriae Pennomroges ("Hill People")
    Cassemorg Maglocassion ("Greater Cassia")
    Conovae Belerion
    Corieltauvae Coritanion
    Cruddain Hiwernon Woluntia ("Ireland of the Ulaidh")
    Erain Hiwernon Hiwerna ("Ireland of the Erainn")
    Greseoallra Cumbadruente ("Valley of the Durance")
    Lemorisae Tirros Pictonion ("Land of the Pictones")
    Lugonesis Allomrogis ("foreign country" - wonder why...)
    Mrogaidu Aidumrogis
    Mrogaulae Lhitavia (vestigial Φ represented in the spelling, but probably not pronounced)
    Nervaea Belgae Tirri Cenobelganom ("Lands of the Far Belgae")
    Noricae Comaltios Noricon ("Federation (lit. brotherhood) of Noricum")
    Sequallra Vlata Sequanon ("Domain of the Sequani")
    Vindelicos Abnoba (mountains)
    Volcallra Tolosamrogis

    Towns and Other Strongholds

    Bratosporios - Bratuspatu
    Caern Brigantae - Isurion Brigantê
    Camelosadae - Camulodunon
    Emain Macha - Isamnion
    Ictis - Isca
    Ratae - Ratas
    Viennos - Viennas

    More Notes

    I'm baffled by Attuaca as this should be the capital of the German Tungri tribe in Belgium. Does anyone know why it's in Scotland?
    Vindelicoppidos in an attempted renaming of Augusta Vendelicorum. This was a Roman foundation. I'd suggest Sorviodunon (Regensburg) instead.
    Ynys Mon might have the name Nemeton Druiton ("Holy place of the Druids") but was there a single stronghold? An alternative would be to choose Camarthen - Moridunon or a Dunom Ordovicion placed anywhere in central Wales.
    I can't quite follow where the Celts end and the Dacians begin in the Hungary-Banat area... can someone tell me who's a Celt and what these -ouw names are and what Mrogbonna is? I'm also extremely sceptical about this "Ak Ink" name for prehistoric Budapest and think it's likely the work of a Victorian crank whose work appeared in an early Encyclopaedia Britannica and which has kept getting dragged up ever since. The name is certainly not Celtic as alleged. Didn't the Iazyges speak something like Scythian...?
    Aquitae shouldn't be Celtic at all. Aquitanian is almost certainly close to Basque. Which means I can't really help.
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    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    I'm baffled by Attuaca as this should be the capital of the German Tungri tribe in Belgium. Does anyone know why it's in Scotland?
    One of the team members mentioned it was a placeholder name that never got round to being replaced. Do we actually know of any sizeable town in Caledonia in this era?
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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Not to draw too fine a point but just to start...

    1) Arimorica was Kelt?
    2) Caladonion?-given the temporal setting wouldn't Alba, Albain, or Albann with a capital of Dun Eideann be a tad more appropriate?
    3) Vlata Brigantom?-how about Tirros Parision as they moved here far eariler and seemed to have been reduced by the much later arrival of followers of the 'Bright One?'
    4) Pennomroges?-Ordovicion as early (1st century AD) there appears a strong connection between Wales and Erainn?
    5) Co(r)novae Belerion?-as these tribal names appear very old; Cornovion or Dumnonion?

    Also will you address the Aithechthuatha issue?
    Last edited by cmacq; 04-02-2008 at 23:22.
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    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    Not to draw too fine a point but just to start...

    1) Arimorica was Kelt?
    2) Caladonion?-given the temporal setting wouldn't Aba, Albain, or Albann with a capital of Dun Eideann be a tad more appropriate?
    Definitely not - these names are all modern Scots Gaelic. This would be out of period, especially when nobody in this region spoke a Q-Celtic language (a few in Argyll possibly) plus, Dun Eideann is a translation of the Northumbrian name which is itself a translation of the Cumbric name. It only became capital of Scotland in the 15th Century.
    3) Vlata Brigantom?-how about Tirros Parision as they moved here far eariler and seemed to have been reduced by the much later arrival of followers of the 'Bright One?'
    I'd be inclined to think the Brigantes were there first, but I suppose I would say that. In any case, the Brigantes are assumed to be dominant. Tirros Parision would have to have Petuaris as its capital.
    4) Pennomroges?-Ordovicion?
    5) Co(r)novae Belerion?-as these tribal names appear very old; Cornovion or Dumnonion?

    Also will you address the Aithechthuatha issue?
    Ordovicion is a possibility but it would leave out Silures, for instance. It's a matter of preference. Belerion is on the OSMOSBITII is the name for Land's End and the Devon-Cornwall penninsula. Again, it's preference. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Aithechthuatha... they're usually to do with Tuathal Techtmar, who's later than EB. Can you explain further?
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    A question to you both.

    Do any of these changes you are suggesting wander south of the Pyrennes? I know this starts to enter into some speculation and there are other issues as well. But I am curious.

    And that e-Keltoi is quite technical. It makes my head spin!
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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Sorry, used Dun Eideann/Din Eiden for Traprain Law (only its site name) which is a short distance to the east and was occupied as a large hill fort from the Late Bronze Age well into the Roman period. Seems to have been abandoned for some reason...
    as the Antonine Wall was established. Reoccupied again after they returned to the southern wall. Was and remained the oppidum/capital of the Otalini/Otadini/Votadini/Gododdin until totally replaced by Din Eiden between AD 400 and 500. Now Ptolemy lists the towns of the Otadini as Alauna, Bremenium, and Coria, but none appear to have been Traprain Law? If you don't like this site there are relatively large Iron Age settlements at Dunsapie Hill, Duddingston and Inveresk. Some have even suggested that Din Eiden was Ptolemy's Alauna as recent excavations have deminstrated an occupation by at least the 1st century AD (this alone suggests an eariler settlement).

    Also pardon me as I should have used the greek 'Albion' or 'Alouion' as recorded by Ptolemy? We also have the much much earlier Pytheas of Massilia use of 'Albion' and 'Ierne.' You of course know what the later is as I didn't want to address that issue? Now to honest, I'll dissect as 'Albion' in Pytheas' time was applied to all of Britain, yet by Ptolemy's day was passing to become only a generic term for Scotland.

    Aithechthuatha-Attacotti, which I know appear later in Latin, but I think there is some evidence they were around in Ireland and possibly Scotland by the 1st century BC.
    Last edited by cmacq; 04-03-2008 at 01:53.
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    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Disciple of Tacitus
    A question to you both.

    Do any of these changes you are suggesting wander south of the Pyrennes? I know this starts to enter into some speculation and there are other issues as well. But I am curious.

    And that e-Keltoi is quite technical. It makes my head spin!
    Apart from a few tribes on the Northwestern corner of the map, I don't think so. And even then it's a "maybe" at best.



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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    The Celtiberians only figure in a couple of provinces and so they're sort of peripheral to what I'm doing. I may suggest a couple of name changes to unit types (and I doubt the Dodoskitl... Doskidetaliska... Diskodat... heavy armour spear guys actually existed at all, let alone unifying Ireland) possibly because some tribes have been made too Celtic and not Basque enough.

    cmacq - I don't see that the Latin Attecotti is the same as the Irish Aithechthuatha at all. There's an -outas missing... Most writers think the word means "very old people" or "those who returned to the old ways".
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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Right,

    landless or ancient Pikeys with skills.

    Also we're not talking about a national capital, such as the capital of Scotland, rather a local seat of power that was only first among near-equals. Of ourse Rome would be a horse of a different colour.
    Last edited by cmacq; 04-03-2008 at 02:12.
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    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    The Celtiberians only figure in a couple of provinces and so they're sort of peripheral to what I'm doing. I may suggest a couple of name changes to unit types (and I doubt the Dodoskitl... Doskidetaliska... Diskodat... heavy armour spear guys actually existed at all, let alone unifying Ireland) possibly because some tribes have been made too Celtic and not Basque enough.
    You're always welcome to suggest, when the suggestions are done properly.

    Although I have serious doubts as to what constituted being "Basque" at that point in history, the Dosidataskeli were in long before I took "charge" of Iberia and unless proven otherwise, they're gonna get the axe for EB2 for sure - that I had decided almost from the get-go.
    Last edited by Sarcasm; 04-03-2008 at 02:14.



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    Jesus Member lobf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    As a former Basque country resident, I can't wait to see some realistic Basque soldiers (I only say that based on the implication that they are a-historical). Some hillmen of the kind that wrecked Charlemagne perhaps.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    I can't quite follow where the Celts end and the Dacians begin in the Hungary-Banat area... can someone tell me who's a Celt and what these -ouw names are and what Mrogbonna is?
    Good/interesting question. I have wondered about the -ouw myself (it could be -kouw)... i will see if i can find something plausible.

    Lugouw, Coutinoe, Eravacouw, Scourcouw are the East Celts of around the Bohemia/Moravia complex as far as recruitment goes.

    Scor in Scour-couw is definitely the Scordisci, their unit is recruitable there. I have a map that says Eravacouw are the Eravisci from what i can tell. the Continoe would be the Cotini. Lugouw the Lugi... the question of whether these guys are truly Celtic (language and ethnicit) comes to mind, but that is unimportant as far as finding out what -couw means. We know the Celts did invade the Carpathian area. It looks like Latin/Greek o = ou in many instances, such as Coutin, Scour, so maybe its easier to find suffix as -ow?

    I was told by one Celtic student that Proto-Celtic mrog means 'land of' and appears as -morg, related to Old Irish murg and muird? therefore Mrogbonna would be 'Land of Boii (Bononae)'

    a free online .pdf Proto-Celtic dictionary [from the University of Wales, i think- moe?] i have, says *mrogi- means 'border'

    ? *skouw = *skorā- (?) enclosure .... (still looking)

    ? *keiwo- man (anybody know how to inflect Proto-Celtic? it would help for a plural of men would make sense- similar to Bavaria [Baia(Boii)-warjoz)

    it occurs to me that couw could be some form of -cum ??? (with a dropped nasal on an unstressed word-final?) but this isn't likely eh? there is a notable lack of that suffix which one would think would find its way into the game somewhere are homage, it's like if no German province had the familar '-land'

    could -ouw be some genetive plural so just - 'of the x'?


    is this totally unrelated? maybe i sound like an idiot, trying to be helpful... oh well.
    Last edited by blitzkrieg80; 04-03-2008 at 06:09.
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    Default Re: Materia Celtica

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm
    Although I have serious doubts as to what constituted being "Basque" at that point in history, the Dosidataskeli were in long before I took "charge" of Iberia and unless proven otherwise, they're gonna get the axe for EB2 for sure - that I had decided almost from the get-go.

    Cool. It's fascinating for me to just watch the conversations here. I agree on the Basque issue. What would constitute a Basque unit in this time frame? IIRC, Charlemagne is a good 1,000 yrs off (or near abouts). I'm all for some Basque units, but where is the proof for those units? Do we have any/enough?


    A beginner's question, but isn't Basque a re-constructed language?



    Oh dear, I don't think I've ever "meet" the Dosidataskeli before. What are they/which province can you find them? And ... well actually, I suppse when you answer those questions, I will know why they are getting axed.


    @ Sarcasm. How do you feel about Appian's works regarding Iberia? They are contemporary no? I am looking for a dual-language version of it, any suggestions?

    Thanks all for your time and assistance.
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