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TPC, check my quotes which i was editting in as you posted it seems to agree pretty closely. I don't think there is any evidence that the word for 'equine' is derived from (but instead cognate to) that of the Tocharians. Although they could easily have had the closest derived form from the same base word. PIE certainly cannot be monopolized by Iranians just like it cannot be so under a pan-Celtic or Germanic identity. If there is clear evidence of loanword traffic, then such a claim can be possible, otherwise off-shoots are just that and not 'originators'.

I used those quotes because the logic is sound, imo, and i like them (rather than being intrinsic or primary source evidence)... I changed the form of horse and equine in my statment which you quoted and responded to (interesting link) because I was referring to it as a placehold, I tend to post and edit rather than lose my text in an accidental browser refresh... that has unfortunately happened too many times to recount.

Nah, it's just a perspective on things, nothing arbitrary; Tocharian, especially Tocharian A, is usually overlooked when it comes to binding together the Western branchings of the Indo-European languages, vis-a-vis the Indo-Iranian and Indo-Aryan languages to the East, so I felt the need to bring it up anyways as a documented item that we may theorize to be the closest existing cognate to a root term. When we are forced to go as far back as using academical constructs such as PIE in order to draw a sketchy but otherwise necessary red line to illustrate the lingual chain of events. PIE alone has at least five so-called "Urheimat" theories so far spaced out from each other it all becomes a gigantic mess of technicalities. But yeah, I see your edits now, and it looks good to me

well I definitely like to mention the steppe as much as possible for that very reason, totally underestimated and possibly most influencial culture zone, period. even as a 'German boy.' I would be mentioning Celts more often if everybody didn't have a 'reawakening' hertiage interest already, Enya-like fetish, seen best in those tribal tatoos [Enya is a good artist for that sort of thing btw, just a good example of Romanticism mentioned accurately by Elmetiacos]. Anyways, by all means, rather than off-topic axes, we should talk about Tocharians, who deserve focus at any point in time or conversation

btw, they may call them theories, but the Indo-Europeans clearly came from the steppe (N. of the Caucaus)... The Scythian culture zone and the Eurasian steppe shows us how fluid the steppe is/has been. I don't care if people think I'm wrong, because the linguistic evidence is clearer than any paltry archaeology in Anatolia and logic is a big factor - why on Earth would a mass of people leave Anatolia (implying weakeness from pop./soc. pressure), Anatolia is quite rich and nicely placed territory compared to the North. so they were forced out and then they run around in the steppe and become uber-conquistadors then all of a sudden go back, but the long way? that's so backward. methinks that those peoples living on the fringes away from pop. pressure, developed a culture that became powerful enough that when they did return to civilization (not from Anatolia but from even more primordial beginnings) that their culture became dominant.

have i gone enough off-topic yet?

What would Joe Salmons say? And whats this about Anatolia and whats a Enya-like fetish? I've been reading some of, 'How (non-)Indo-European is the Germanic Lexicon?
… And what does that mean?' so I must have missed a few posts?

Just checked, and no I didn't? Are you talking about the Turks?

I hope these are the final 1.1 unit renamings:
Dunaminica Kinketoi Dunum ("Warriors of the Forts")
clona Gosnasio Alioneizes ("Secondary Fighters")

Willco. Only cause you say so.

Sarcasm, nothing greater than a big **** you.

Cmacq, your claim that Germanic has a foreign lexicon at its base, nonetheless one of Finno-Ugric origin (sorry, this is from another thread i believe) which shows quite the opposite in loanword traffic (Germanic is borrowed into Finnish, at a much higher degree and later timeline) has very little substance. For instance, there is no reason to think every word in Germanic is borrowed simply because other cultures have similar usage: "way" has so many cognates and derivative words based on early roots that I will not even list them all unless you have some contradictory evidence to provide. The word 'horse' from 'way' comes from *weganan (Gothic wigan, ON vega, OE wegan, OFris wega, OS wegan, OHG wegan), connected to Sanskrit váhati 'to drive, to ride', Avestan vazenti, Latin uehō 'to bear, to carry' and the list goes on. Nothing Celtic, nonetheless Proto-Celtic about it either.

as to your question about Proto-Turks, the same could go for Proto-Bolgars and the like and I must say they should certainly not be underestimated or forgotton but there is so little information on them there is no chance for anything but speculation. Indo-Europeans would definitely be no pure breed and the many interesting off-shoots are probably as much due to integration with non-Indo-European populations as much as linguistic mutation. Germanic is not unique in this and is not any moreso a product of such. the transformations from Indo-European to Germanic follow clear Indo-European-based rules, morphology/phonology, ect.

Slow down man, I've no idea what this is all about. Have you read what you have been writing? I didn't claim that Germanic has a foreign lexicon at its base. I just put up the title of a paper; 'How (non-)Indo-European is the Germanic Lexicon? … And what does that mean?' by Joseph Salmons, UW-Madison. I just finished reading it. You wrote about 'Anatolia, steppe and become uber-conquistadors,' and 'then all of a sudden go back;' I thought you're somehow referring to the Turks not proto-Turks? Also, I'm not sure what the stuffs about the words 'wagon' or 'horse' is about either? This seems to have started over E. saying Carrodunon=Chariot Fort, and me 'can't this mean wagon-fort,' and so on? And, Finno-Ugric (used as a linguistic construct associated w/IE as opposed to Finno-Permic, Ugric, and Samoyedic), not Finnish, I think this is from another tread altogether?

Is everything OK?

He's not even respecting the original meaning on some of the names, and he claims he knows very little of celtiberian. Am I supposed to take his word for it? At least give me something to work from.

Sarcasm.... you did what I would have said more rudely if I were in your celtic boots.

It must be something with people that think they know better about celtic matters, that they never post sources.

I've been careful to post readily available sources. Am I expected to re-post them every time I say anything? d > z shift in Celtiberian can be checked with Carlos Jordán Cólera's article, as can the Celtiberian -um dative plural as against Gaulish -on. Feel free to suggest an alternative if you want one; I'm only here to point people in the right direction. I have to welcome this conversion to concern for scholarship, however; not so long ago, you were happy to accept such definitive sources as "there is reference to a king much later, who lived around the time, and attempted to expand his lands and engage in trade" or patently fake claims that hammers had been found Kilrathmurray adjacent to Ballykane Hill, a site which actually contained nothing but slag from a disused ironworks, as you could have discovered from a couple of mouse clicks.

Ok. This has been a civilized and insightful thread up to now and will continue to be so. Try to stay on topic and overall - be civil. We are all here because we love EB and we love history. Always keep that in mind.

Gaulish surnames - a small revision.
On the Continental Celtic group, it was suggested that the various patronymic suffixes aren't dependant on the stem of the name, but that they all have slightly different meanings. -ios (and variant -eos) is the straightforward one, -iknos a diminutive possibly used for children, and -iacos a family name like an Irish Ó. This would mean that -iacos is the one to use if you want the rulers all to keep the same surname.
A revised list:
Abucatios Acutiacos Alaucios Anniciacos Atectorigios Cantorigios Cattiacos Cisiambios Contoutios Diasulios Ducomariacos Durnacios Elcesovigios Epênios Exobniacos Maupennios Orcetirigios Togirigios Turoniacos Acisiacos Alcuiniacos Anarevisiacos Andecamulios Aneuniacos Aricaniacos Bellatorigios Blandoviceos Bonnorigios Caliodubnios Camulogenios Cassitaliacos Catumoceos Corisiacos Dagorigios Dumnomotios Escanecotios Esopnios Ivorigios Latumarios Litumarios Macloniacos Nantonios Ogrigenios Orgetorigios Rextugeniacos Rianorigios Samoriciacos Sedagisamios Segomarios Sintorigios Sosimiliacios Tabetiscios Tasciacios Tincorigios Tôtanorigios Vebrumarios Veretomarios Vonatorigios

try and give this a bump...

any thoughts on plaits? did celts plait their hair in the 3c bc? did they do it in battle, or only when entertaining dinner guests or likewise being entertained? did only certain celts (either by social rank or locale) use plaits?

This thread is coming to an end. I'm working to some extent on a revised Celtic voicemod, but I don't really think of this as high priority. As a generic barbarian sound, the current one may be nonsense but it sort of sounds good even though it doesn't mean anything. A voicemod also contains actual sentences and theories as to how they might be spoken, so it's more work than just finding personal names or translating names for soldiers.

In another bit of mopping up in the meantime, the fake cycles were removed in 1.1 but there are a few lingering pieces of dubious provenance, as follows:
Tyn fian dwma fiatua!
{trans_81}
I am a freeman in a free state!
{quoted_82}
Last words of Dumnorix. Refused to be a hostage, and killed by Julius Caesar's men
If indeed Dumnorix said this ('often exlaiming that he was free and the subject of a free state') in Gaulish it would have been more like:
viros reidios immi agos toutios vlatas reidias
This is my reconstruction, apart from immi, agos and toutios, which are attested on inscriptions in Gaul. All the same, I think it might be better just to use English or Latin.

{quote_83}
Timidios di Albhae Bren!
{trans_84}
For the true king of Britain!
{quoted_85}
Rallying cry of the Catuvellaunians/Casse
{quote_86}
This is pure fantasy. Bren or Brenin is a modern Welsh word for a king derived from Brythonic *brigantin- and wouldn't have been in use at the time. di is presumably a distortion of Irish dé meaning 'from' or 'of' and Albhae looks like a distortion of the Gaelic word from Britain. timidios has me baffled. I won't try a translation because I'm fairly sure nothing like this Arthurian formula was ever said by the Cassi or Catuvellauni. Instead, what about the words of Caratacus, brought to Rome as a prisoner: 'I had men and horses, arms and wealth. What wonder if I parted with them reluctantly? If you Romans choose to lord it over the world, does it follow that the world is to accept slavery?'

Toutava, marae, da augu, tosgo, mavi Vergalla!
{trans_133}
For tribe, family, and honor, forward, sons of Great Gaul!
{quoted_134}
Inscription on a statue of Dis, the mythic founder of Gaul
{quote_135}
"Dis" isn't the legendary founder of Gaul; this probably came from statues of a Gaulish deity whose Latin name is Dis Pater. The Gaulish has bits of right in a sea of wrong. It might be more like *Tôten, cenetlon agos ??? mapûs Maglogalaton... not that it's a genuine quotation.

Catuvellaunorix bathbanay acorrius cagoran
{trans_142}
King of the Catuvellauni, I am dead. I hope it was enough
{quoted_143}
Inscription on the tomb of an ancient British royal guard, presumably the guard's last words
{quote_144}
This would be big news if such a discovery had actually been made. Of course, it never was. Catuvellaunorix is correct, too... the rest of it is completely made up and should be something vaguely like Marvos immi. Laveros buetio velor? Boudica's 'Win this battle or perish; that is what I, a woman, shall do.' is marginally outside the EB time frame but still a good replacement.

Behold the striking hammer of justice. Enemies of my people, know my name and woe
{quoted_168}
Inscription on figurines of Sucellos
{quote_169}
Unfortunately, Sucellos uses his hammer to crush grapes, not enemies; he's the patron deity of wine making. There would never be any such inscription.

Agomonos ta Caballos ta Terc assubio
{trans_172}
Agomonos and Caballos and Terc were here
{quoted_173}
Gallic inscription in Egypt
{quote_174}
In all the sources, books or web links, I've looked up in my life, ever, or in the course of research for this thread, I've never seen any reference to Gaulish inscriptions in Egypt; it would again be big news if it existed, which it doesn't. The word ta means "and" in Romany, but not in Gaulish; Gaulish had two words which might translate as "and" - agos and eti. Assubio makes no sense at all. This quotation would be a bit dull even if it were authentic...

I have to admit that Celtic hairstyles aren't anything that I know much about, other than the reputed practice of using some sort of white wash (possibly lime, but apparently that hurts and you eventually go bald) and drawing their hair into spikes.

A bit later in time, yet how about...

"By the gods of my nation, he whom contests with me, shall lose his head."

Cu Chulainn, from Bricriu's Banquete, or 'The Feast of the One with the Poison Tongue.'

"Stay, as a war of weapons will not be held here; this shall be a war of words."

Sencha, from Bricriu's Banquete, or 'The Feast of the One with the Poison Tongue.'

Cu Chulainn, to provoke...
"Everyone has seen your clumsy horses lurch the straightaway and the turn, as your over-burdened chariot lumbers on behind; wherever your big cart runs both wheels dig to kick turf here and there, so for a year your rutty path can be followed easily by Ulster's men of war."

"Indeed pity but don't blame me, for I'm more than quick to wade through Ulster's men of war, and face a storm of spears; nor pretend you're restrained by trees or narrows, as each noble champion drives a chariot, and not a single hero has tried to race their cart past me."
Loegaire, in responce...

both from Bricriu's Banquete, or 'The Feast of the One with the Poison Tongue.'

About seven years ago, I think I remember reading something about a similar inscription found in Egypt; let me see if I can find it??

Have you tried doing a search for Galatian instead of Gaulish?

Found it...

Freeman, P., 2001 The Galatian Language. A Comprehensive Survey of the Language of the Ancient Celts in Greco-Roman Asia Minor.


Right, it does say Galatian mercenaries, in Egypt around 185 BC. Good thing I cleaned my study yesterday. However, I remember seeing it somewhere else, as well. However, this ia actually about Galatian mercenaries (known by their names) writing, a Greek inscription (not Gaulish or Galatian), in Egypt. I think, someone messed up.

Aha - I've found it; an inscription on a temple wall telling how some mercenaries caught a fox or a jackal. The inscripton is in Greek as are their names, but they describe themselves as Galatians. That explains why I'd not heard of it.

My favourite Cu Chulainn quote is, "I care not that I live for a single day, provided my fame endures."

Táin Bó Cúalnge

Perfect..


for EB, I think.

On a completely off-topic note, I find it very amusing how timeless the whole scenario is: some soldiers bag a critter, and write a graffiti about it on a nearby wall - to the benefit of scholars over two millenia later.
Guess some things don't change much.

Actually, if one may make a case for inclusion?

Although written down much later, the Lebor Gabála Érenn says that the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the birth and death of Cúchulainn date to the reign of Conaire Mor. In turn, it says this king was a contemporary of Augustus, which would be just within the EB time frame, yes or no? If the Ulster Cycle was made available to EB, there is a very large number of very good quotes, to be had.

The red part cracked me up, though.

Not really sure I understand the question, are you asking about the Suebian Knot?

"Patron of winemaking" ? Didn't the Celts import their wine from the Med though ? IIRC Roman merchants were at times amazed at the going rate of even one amphora...

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