Vices and Virtues

[Knight of the Rose]

Well, it's an old topic, but none the less: Is there a list somewhere of what triggers v&vs? I've seen quite a lot of lists with descriptions. I don't need that, I need to know how I can get/avoid v&vs. Some of the links I've found are very old and no longer exists.

Can one or more of you resourcefull mates help me out?

/KotR

[Knight Templar]

You know, this will be one long list (I'll try to remember as much as I can)

-many of the governors get vices which reduce agricultural and trade income once your empire gets large. These vices include "Family above all", "Corrupt", "Outlaw" and so once. This can't be avoided, and it seems game is programmed that way. Even if you appoint a new governor, he will get some vice of this type soon. Also, I've noticed that these vices mostly affect newly appointed governors (governors of newly conquered provinces) more often than governors of your homelands you've appointed at the beginning of the campaign

-actions on the battlefield
-if you retreat (to be more precise, click "call of the attack" or "abandon the province") you may get "Retreats often" set of vices
-if you have prisoners killed during or after battle, you get "No mercy" set of vices (increases dread, decreases morale)
-if your general runs away several times, he gets "coward" vices
-if your gen kills more than 40 (IIRC) men on the battlefield, he gets "Butcher" vice (+3 dread, if I recall correctly)
-if your gen wins often when att/def he gets "good attacker"/"good defender"
-"weak attacker"/"weak defender" in a similar way

-actions on campaign map
-virtues like "Builder" or "Steward"
-bribing vices/virtues like "Unbribable" / "Morale flexibility"
-"Informants" when your gen successfully gets through trial you put him on
-and others I can't remember

-you can also have your spies reveal vices of enemy generals ("Assasionator" being one of them" - reduces happiness -40 )



But, I found most of virtues and vices to be random. I'd also like to know how to avoid vices to "Crack Brained", "Drunk", "Inbred" (and I don't marry my princesses to ex-princes)

[DaVega]

Hey Knight of the Rose,

I will include an (nearly) total list of all v&v's in my guide (check my topic about it), which you can archieve during the game ;) I don't really know when you are rewarded with these v&v's, but I agree with the conclusions of Knight Templar! My part containing those v&v's is already like 8-9 page's.

Greetings,
DaVega

[Knight of the Rose]

Well, I'll be looking forward to that part of the guide, and I know the list is long.

But triggers that are "certain", that is, will always kick in, in a given situation: That list must be somewhat limited? No?

I guess someone, and that might be me , could search the forums and make a guide called: v&v 'the mythbuster'

/KotR

[Ironside]

-if your gen kills more than 40 (IIRC) men on the battlefield, he gets "Butcher" vice (+3 dread, if I recall correctly)

That's the "killer instinct" line (gives valour and dread, goes up higher than that), you get butcher by executing more than 1000 men on the battlefirld (+2 dread).

Well, I'll be looking forward to that part of the guide, and I know the list is long.

But triggers that are "certain", that is, will always kick in, in a given situation: That list must be somewhat limited? No?

Problem is that some are so rare that's it's almost impossible to see how it's given, take upgrading natural leader to fine leader for example, I didn't belive it was possible until I saw it myself.
The great warrior is another example of this (that I haven't seen myself), and I almost never see killer instinct upgrade.
Some are also random with loaded dices, for example religious generals shows more often up in high zeal provinces.

[macsen rufus]

FWIW the "Inbred" line of vices is totally unrelated to marrying princes to their own sisters, and the impression I get is that it comes along with spending too long in a "backwater" province. Someone once made a good case for "Drinker" arising when a faction is training too many troops, though I can't remember who or where, now.

Heirs tend to acquire certain vices almost by rote in some families - whereas the old rule was "One to inherit, one for the army and one for the church" MTW seems to make it "One congenitally deformed, one for the looney bin and one for Alc Anon", then it may get around to giving you one who is fit to live

"Informants" comes along with any unsuccessful spy mission (treason trial or reveal vices), the bribery ones - the negative ones appear randomly, and after a successful bribe. The positive ones are rarer and tend to arise after a failed bribery attempt.

I don't think there is any way to avoid "crack-brained" etc, or the one I really hate, which is "pride" - you wait years for a decent governor to come along, you drop a title on him and next year he gets all puffed up with self-importance and starts losing acumen

The one thing that is certain with VnVs is that once you think you have something sussed out, the next game turn you'll have something happen to contradict your lovely new theory

[Knight Templar]

That's the "killer instinct" line (gives valour and dread, goes up higher than that), you get butcher by executing more than 1000 men on the battlefirld (+2 dread).

Thanks for correcting me

Just to add a few words:

I don't think there is any way to avoid "crack-brained" etc, or the one I really hate, which is "pride" - you wait years for a decent governor and commander to come along, you drop a title on him and next year he gets all puffed up with self-importance and starts losing acumen and command

You're right about interhitting vices. In my last campaign, half of my princes and emperors turned out to have "perversion" vice.

[Jxrc]

-many of the governors get vices which reduce agricultural and trade income once your empire gets large. These vices include "Family above all", "Corrupt", "Outlaw" and so once. This can't be avoided, and it seems game is programmed that way. Even if you appoint a new governor, he will get some vice of this type soon. Also, I've noticed that these vices mostly affect newly appointed governors (governors of newly conquered provinces) more often than governors of your homelands you've appointed at the beginning of the campaign)

This is essentially due to the fact the there is a limit to the number of V&v one general can get so that your old govenors have no place left to get v&v such as "brigand and thief", "oultlaw", "gambler", "family favorite", etc.

-if you retreat (to be more precise, click "call of the attack" or "abandon the province") you may get "Retreats often" set of vices


-if your gen wins often when att/def he gets "good attacker"/"good defender"
-"weak attacker"/"weak defender" in a similar way )

You only get "retreat often" if you abandon the province. If you cancel an attack a few times (3 iirc) you get hesitant, vacillator, etc.

-if your general runs away several times, he gets "coward" vices)

You get penalised the first time youn run away and get "good runner". Gets worse everytime afterwards ("doubtful courage", "coward")

-if your gen wins often when att/def he gets "good attacker"/"good defender"
-"weak attacker"/"weak defender" in a similar way )

It is not really winning often (if you win often you merely get additional stars) but winning against the odds or with very little losses compared to those suffered by the opposing army.

For instance if the opposing army start to retreat as soon as the battle starts, you can try to catch some unit with your cavalry. You will get losses like 1 or 2 men, capture something like 60/80 mean and get the skilled attacker V&v.

Same thing for the opposite, you get "weak something" if you suffer way bigger losses than your enemy or if you lose a battle that you should have won.

For the rest, all I can add is:

- general that are the target of an unsuccesful assasination attempt get V&V that can be good (survivor, rough justice, hard to kill, invulnerable) or bad (recluse, nervous, very nervous)
- same for those tested by inquisitors, end result can be good (devout, born again, etc) or bad (atheist)
- IIRC, having your princes (or general ?) assassinated can get you king vices that are good initially but get bad if you overdo it. Ca remember for sure, have not murdered my sons for a while ...
- someone once wrote that giving and taking away titles on a regular basis could get you the "tyran" or "autocrat" v&v but I have never tested that.

[The Unknown Guy]

I´ve been playing Crusader Kings for a while now, and I have the impression that Medieval Total War intended to improve the original Shogun by adding a CK-like generation and diplomacy system. Unfortunatedly, it fell somewhat short of the stated goal (pity).

I suspect that the Shogun theme is more fitting for the engine capabilities than medieval treachery. I think I´ll give a try to the Samurai Warlords mod when I reinstall MTW..

EDIT: or play Viking invasions. That one was rather straightfoward too..

[Raz]

I've noticed that you won't get inbred or drinking traits (or any traits for that matter) if your general is jumping around your own provinces. Try it, just move a general with at least one or two traits around your provinces and make sure he lands in a different province at the end of each turn and he won't get a single Vice or Virtue.

[Martok]

I've noticed that you won't get inbred or drinking traits (or any traits for that matter) if your general is jumping around your own provinces. Try it, just move a general with at least one or two traits around your provinces and make sure he lands in a different province at the end of each turn and he won't get a single Vice or Virtue.

Yeah, I've been advocating this stratagem for a long time now. Once my empire reaches a certain size, I start sending my governors on "grand tours" of my realm to keep them from getting bad traits. It's not foolproof, of course -- generals can still pick up vices now and then, no matter what you do -- but it does appear to greatly cut down on the frequency with which they get them.

[oz_wwjd]

About that:does the AI ever use spies to uncover hidden vices in your generals? I've seen them use both assassins and attempt to bribe my provinces,but not sure about spies..

[I of the Storm]

I don't think so, since the only enemy agents that ever are reported getting caught, are assassins, whereas my own spies do get caught. I conclude therefore that the AI doesn't use spies.

[Jxrc]

Never seen the AI use a spy to discover a hidden v&v but I've received a few posts announcing the capture of a spy in campaigns that kept going after 1320 something.

My guess would be that the AI can use spies but seldom does due to building requirements and the odd way it builds stuff.