Mass Immigration; No Benefit.

[Big_John]

Couldn't agree more. I'd die from starvation rather than eat norwegian food.

what is that, various cured or fermented fishes?

[HoreTore]

what is that, various cured or fermented fishes?

You're thinking of our most famous dish, rakefisk:

Rotten fish swallowed down with Aquevit, mostly in the hope that the two will cancel each other out and you won't taste anything.

Other celebration dishes include cooked sheep's head(also swallowed down with strong liquor) and the bones of the sheep with a thin splinter of meat, that's salted down so much that you're going to need a bucket of water for every mouthful.

As for everyday dishes, we have... well, anything involving cooked potatoes(usually some sort of sliced meat and/or cooked fish), except that it seems to be illegal to use any kinds of spice.

@Pape: too true, there's no way I'm buying a kebab unless I can see that the guy making it looks middle-eastern. Euro's can't make the 'bab, plain and simple.

@Fragony: You're overpopulated even with just the natives, the solution is simple; stop procreating. One child policy ftw! Or get a big portion on a boat and send them over here...

[Papewaio]

@Pape: too true, there's no way I'm buying a kebab unless I can see that the guy making it looks middle-eastern. Euro's can't make the 'bab, plain and simple.

Meh all you Euro's look the same to me. Turkish or Spanish, if the Kebab is good I'll eat it.

Tongue yet again firmly in cheek.

[Furious Mental]

Now we know why the Vikings were so eager to get out of the place.

[Big_John]

but Pape, who goes to starbucks? only newbs. i can make a mean rogan josh or pad prik king because i can read a recipe (it has to be a good recipe of course). no need for immigrants. colonization gets the job done well enough.

now the hot foreign chicks.. thats another matter.

[Papewaio]

And where do you get the freshest and widest selection of those ingredients?

[Big_John]

And where do you get the freshest and widest selection of those ingredients?

imports from the colonies.

[Kralizec]

@Pape: too true, there's no way I'm buying a kebab unless I can see that the guy making it looks middle-eastern. Euro's can't make the 'bab, plain and simple.

Racist!

[Innocentius]

Racist!

No, you can only be a racist if you're a white man discriminating non-white (men and women).

And actually no, there's no benefit in mass immigration, no economic benefit at least. However, it's an excellent way to create segregation, racism and conflicts. If you rate exotic food higher than low crime rates, that's up to you.

[Fragony]

Is the org radicalising? Global warming? So many of you start to remind me of me.

[Papewaio]

And actually no, there's no benefit in mass immigration, no economic benefit at least. However, it's an excellent way to create segregation, racism and conflicts. If you rate exotic food higher than low crime rates, that's up to you.

Yeah I know in Aus all the criminals immigrated in.

[Innocentius]

Yeah I know in Aus all the criminals immigrated in.

Australia (like all the countries dominated by a white population where there originally was none) is one odd example of what immigration can cause. Of course, there are too many differencies to compare European colonization of Australia with immigration of "non-Westerners" into Western Europe, but it's still a good example of what happens when an indigenous culture is faced by a foreign one. The clash is inevitable; it mustn't necessary be as dramatical (and bloody) as it was in Australia, but it gives a hint. The same goes for everything really, no matter what you do, there will always be differencies for people to fight about.

Not really, "culturalist" might be more suitable.

I buy bab from arabs, chinese food from asians, pizza from italians and spicy food from indians. Hasn't failed me yet.

To be completely honest; that, by definition, is racism. Just assuming that a certain kind of people can, while another can't, master a certain area of cooking, is bigoted. Everyone can follow a recipe, and to excel in the cooking of a certain dish only requires some practice, it's not like turks and arabs are genetically programmed to be awesome at making kebab.

There certainly is, that's one of the reasons our economy boomed when we found the oil. If we hadn't received a load of pakistani's, our economy would've stopped because of an extreme labour shortage. Getting some immigrants solved that problem nicely.

Exactly what do you mean by that? Are you suggesting that because you found some oil, you had to drill it? What gives? Sure, multinational companies would've bought the findings from "you" sooner or later, but you can't possibly mean that immigration was a way for Norway to save itself from the burden of oil drilling.

[HoreTore]

To be completely honest; that, by definition, is racism. Just assuming that a certain kind of people can, while another can't, master a certain area of cooking, is bigoted. Everyone can follow a recipe, and to excel in the cooking of a certain dish only requires some practice, it's not like turks and arabs are genetically programmed to be awesome at making kebab.

No, but the employees at this place are. Which is the only place I buy my bab, because it's been tested and tried that everyone else blow at it. Especially in the north. I think the bab-gene stops functioning above Trondheim or something...

Seriously, while they're not inherently better at it, they are better at it in practice. The reason? There are no bab-shops run by norwegians! All of them, without exception, are run by pakistani's, turks, etc etc. The norwegians who offer bab don't run bab-shops, they mostly run hamburger shops and just offer babs as an additional dish, and as such they don't put so much effort into that area. They have a wide range of stuff to offer to customers. The bab shops often make other things too, but they live on the bab, and if they stopped focusing so much on them, they'd lose costumers, as most of them come there solely for the bab.

Exactly what do you mean by that? Are you suggesting that because you found some oil, you had to drill it? What gives? Sure, multinational companies would've bought the findings from "you" sooner or later, but you can't possibly mean that immigration was a way for Norway to save itself from the burden of oil drilling.

No. Finding the oil made our economy boom. A booming economy creates a lot of new jobs. To keep the boom going, those jobs need to be filled, or else things will slow down/not boom as much as it could've. A labour shortage is a luxury problem, but it's still a problem. And the best solution is immigration.

[HoreTore]

Racist!

Not really, "culturalist" might be more suitable.

I buy bab from arabs, chinese food from asians, pizza from italians and spicy food from indians. Hasn't failed me yet.

And actually no, there's no benefit in mass immigration, no economic benefit at least. However, it's an excellent way to create segregation, racism and conflicts. If you rate exotic food higher than low crime rates, that's up to you.

There certainly is, that's one of the reasons our economy boomed when we found the oil. If we hadn't received a load of pakistani's, our economy would've stopped because of an extreme labour shortage. Getting some immigrants solved that problem nicely.

[Fragony]

Not really, "culturalist" might be more suitable.

I buy bab from arabs, chinese food from asians, pizza from italians and spicy food from indians. Hasn't failed me yet.

So do I but I eat it when I am home. Multiculture is still a luxory item for Norway, why don't you take a look at your Swedish neigbours where they just can't hug it off, but you don't really have to it isn't like rape hasn't skyrocketed in Bergen, what was it a 300% rise in just a few years? Keep pumping that oil there is enough for everyone huh.

[HoreTore]

So do I but I eat it when I am home. Multiculture is still a luxory item for Norway, why don't you take a look at your Swedish neigbours where they just can't hug it off, but you don't really have to it isn't like rape hasn't skyrocketed in Bergen, what was it a 300% rise in just a few years? Keep pumping that oil there is enough for everyone huh.

Yeah.... About norwegian rape statistics, there's something you should know:

Last year, there was a "rape-wave" in Oslo. The outcry was enormous, it was unsafe for women to walk in the streets at night, etc etc.

The number of rapes? I think it was 5 total in 1-2 months. In a city with 500.000 inhabitants.

300% increase in Bergen would probably mean an increase from 1 rape to 3 rapes a year... Or that "The Pocket Man" has added a few more cases.

[Fragony]

The number of rapes? I think it was 5 total in 1-2 months. In a city with 500.000 inhabitants.

Nice

keep it up, but you won't

[Kaidonni]

You'd think that mass uncontrolled immigration would only be done by an idiot. Seriously. You don't just let anyone into the country willy-nilly. There have to be controls, rules, regulations. And I mean ones that are strictly enforced. Then, the UK population is already 60 million, which is more than enough. We're full up. A dropping fertility rate is little argument for mass immigration because it's just throwing numbers at a problem, hoping for a solution.

Besides, if we lowered the population carefully to 50 million or so (yeah, I know, less colourful than a revolution and lots of raving lunatics with machine guns on orders to purge the population, but we might get told off by the UN ), with very careful planning, focusing on what would need to be done with funds for different services, etc, we might have a few less problems. This island is getting crowded, and enough is enough. Humans do need to learn to control themselves a bit better, or we're really screwed. Not just other parts of the world, but we UKers too.

Human populations need to be reduced the world over, carefully and properly. To save Humanity, as well as the world around us.

[Redleg]

Human populations need to be reduced the world over, carefully and properly. To save Humanity, as well as the world around us.

Solient Green anyone?

[Tribesman]

You'd think that mass uncontrolled immigration would only be done by an idiot.

Well I know the world is full of idiots , and the overwhelming majority of politicians are idiots , but I cannot actually recall countries having policies of uncontrolled mass immigration.

[Kaidonni]

Well I know the world is full of idiots , and the overwhelming majority of politicians are idiots , but I cannot actually recall countries having policies of uncontrolled mass immigration.

When our government has let in murderers and paedophiles, and rejects Gurkhas? I guess it's not that uncontrolled...it's controlled, but against many of the decent.

We need stricter border controls. Simple as. It's as good as uncontrolled at the moment. If criminals try to snake their way in, deportation. If an immigrant comes here, then starts committing crimes, deportation. No paying them off or anything. Would be a very good start.

So, I do guess you're right about controlled, but it's still just not good enough.

Oh, and no Soylent Green, Redleg...again, we might get told off by the UN. :P

[Vladimir]

Whoops. Hate being late to the party.

[lancelot]

The 90+ age demographic is now the fastest growing age bracket in the UK...a worrying statistic.

Immigration to the UK at present is the modern equivalent of share-cropping...virtual economic slavery that benefits greedy corporate bosses who now instead of paying a decent wage for many jobs find it more economical to hire a boat load of Polish or whatever.

This problem is in turn made worse by the astronomical cost of the housing market- no wonder people are not reproducing is sufficient numbers, it is so expensive in the UK (especially in/near London) the average near London flat (2 bedroom if you are lucky) costing £250-300,000 easy (thats half a million $ to our Yankee friends)

Which ultimately means- we need those immigrants, as much as I am loathe to admit it...but this in turn is fueling resentment over the issue; and so on and on the sick little cycle proceeds.

Worker immigration is only benefitting one group of people- fat cat employers, who else does it benefit? Does the saving made on hiring cheap labour get passed onto the consumer? In theory supposedly, in reality? Like hell it does.

I think there is only one real question to ask when considering the benefits of mass cheap labour. Q: Why did all states abolish slavery- the ultimate expression of cheap labour? A: Because it was an economically ruinous enterprise that devalued the worth of other labour forces.

[Incongruous]

Why was immigration (one of the most collosal events in British History) not voted on? Or never discussed properly between govt. and public?
I mean it is an identity altering event, changes the faces of nations yet no one has ever really voted on it.

[Innocentius]

Why was immigration (one of the most collosal events in British History) not voted on? Or never discussed properly between govt. and public?
I mean it is an identity altering event, changes the faces of nations yet no one has ever really voted on it.

Because if given the opportunity to vote, the people would have voted against, perhaps not with a great majority, but still against. And if the people voted against, the Brits would be horrible racists, and the world would hate them.

Of course, the Brits have a lot of colonial history to deal with, but that's no reason their population should have to feel some sort of collective guilt and repent this with taking one more immigrants than they can even handle. Same goes with Germany, France, Spain... heck, all European countries. I, personally, can't think of any non-European countries that are trying to beg the world for forgiveness by slowly ruining their own country.

[InsaneApache]

Why was immigration (one of the most collosal events in British History) not voted on? Or never discussed properly between govt. and public?
I mean it is an identity altering event, changes the faces of nations yet no one has ever really voted on it.

Here's a thought to make you ponder......

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The problem with accusing a government, or any institution or person, of incompetence is that it seems to excuse its motives.

When we say, as we should often feel the temptation to do, that the Labour administration that has governed us for the past 11 years is incompetent, we should be aware also that we are saying the following: that, but for its administrative and technical failings, it would have done well.

I do not believe this to be true. Despite the sheen of reason that Gordon Brown and, before him, Tony Blair and their chums have sought to put on all they do, this Government has had dark motives from the start.

It has followed policies deliberately that have enabled it to pursue its own political agenda - and this has always been a deeply politically motivated government in the way that Lady Thatcher's was, and that John Major's wasn't - and irrespective of some of the dire consequences that might flow from those policies.

The element of deliberation and deliberateness in what Labour has done makes an accusation of incompetence, or carelessness, seem wide of the mark. Things were meant to be this way.

Labour has pursued policies, be they social or economic, for ideological reasons: and when they fail, as so many have, it has not been because of slipshod administration. It is because that was how things were always going to work out.

I mention this in the specific context of the House of Lords report on the benefits - or lack of them - of mass immigration. The theory applies, however, to much else, immediate or not. Some feel that mass immigration happened by accident; or that Labour's economic miracle was, indeed, so miraculous that it required hecatombs of foreigners to come here and undertake it.

The second contention was paraded in an interview yesterday by the immigration minister, Liam Byrne, on Radio 4's Today programme. With one and a half million unemployed, perhaps the same again on nebulous "training schemes", and about three million on incapacity benefit - many of whom would, if asked, be fit for non-manual work - the idea that we have so small a pool of labour here that we must borrow from abroad is simply preposterous.

That does not stop Mr Byrne from saying the opposite. He must. He has to cover up for the deliberate decision taken at the time when Jack Straw was Home Secretary, and maintained (though he often protested to the contrary) by his successor, David Blunkett, that immigration controls should not be enforced.

Why was this decision taken? It was because of a doctrinally driven determination by the new Government in 1997 to destroy our national identity and to advance multiculturalism.

How funny it is now that we should have a Prime Minister - who as a member of the government at the time no doubt was busy when such decisions were made - who bangs on about "Britishness", amid the sound of the slamming of stable doors.

How amusing, too, that in the aftermath of four young British men blowing up themselves, and 52 other people, on public transport in London in 2005, many old Leftists should now decide that multiculturalism wasn't so great after all.

Mr Byrne well understands his political duty to try to minimise harmful perceptions of the awful consequences of this policy, and he sought, not especially successfully, to do that too in his interview. This process of denial is long-standing.

When eventually an immigration officer, Steve Moxon, had the courage to put his head above the parapet in 2004 and expose the lack of enforcement of controls, he was promptly sacked (as indeed was the then immigration minister, Beverley Hughes).

The Government had blithely ignored torrents of stories in the press about the inflow of "asylum seekers", who, in the days before the former Soviet bloc entered the EU, came here purely for economic reasons, and not because of any fear of persecution. Ministers - Mr Blunkett was especially good at this - started to talk about the impending mass deportation of illegal immigrants, but it never happened.

It was hard enough to find the political will to throw out those inciting terrorism and racial hatred against the indigenous Christian community, never mind removing those who were comparatively harmless.

So now, confronted with hard evidence that immigrants add a matter of pence each to our economic growth, while putting impossible strains on housing, transport and social services (and particularly in the south-east of England), Labour has to find excuses.

Mr Byrne's seemed to be that what happened was all very successful, so successful that it might have to stop. You will not hear him admit that it was a plan by Labour ideologues to shake up society, and to pursue the movement's traditional internationalism, in a cynical and determined way.

When one applies the doctrine on non-incompetence more widely, one hears other echoes. We have lived beyond our means not because economic growth has not, or will not, live up to its earlier billing, but because Mr Brown's priority was to create a client state of feather-bedded Labour voters.

Knowing it would harm economic stability, he set about printing money and borrowing excessively to put people on the public payroll, and to cushion hordes of the undeserving, Labour-voting poor with welfare benefits. This was not incompetent, however it might look: it was deliberate and stunning in its calculation.

So, too, for a further example, was education policy. A Marxist-driven philosophy of anti-elitism forced down standards: but if the level of attainment required to pass a public examination is forced down too, then, voilà! we all look much cleverer than we used to be.

The results of this only become apparent when the halfwits produced go out and try to run something, such as getting our railways repaired on time, or even Terminal 5.

Mr Brown also had a policy of making fathers redundant in families, by downgrading the state's respect for marriage, and providing a career structure for single mothers that included state-provided childcare.

Coupled with the Blairite policy of turning the police into a weapon of social engineering from one of crime fighting, he has presented us with today's under-achieving, feral youth, with its knives and guns, going around killing each other and making our cities seem like the dirtier suburbs of Los Angeles.

I know it is tempting to call these terrible things the results of government incompetence. They really are not. Mr Blair and Mr Brown between them chose to do these things, or allowed ministers and officials to do them.

They were all part of the plan for "change" (oh, how we love that word) after 18 years of Tory misrule.

We need to reflect more, indeed hourly, on how well those plans have turned out; and what should happen to those still in office who remain responsible for inflicting their bigotries and stupidities on the rest of us, under the guise of "progress"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../02/do0201.xml

[Tribesman]

Why was immigration (one of the most collosal events in British History) not voted on? Or never discussed properly between govt. and public?
I mean it is an identity altering event, changes the faces of nations yet no one has ever really voted on it.

What collosal event ? do you mean 1066 and them damn Norman immigrants ?
So its an identity altering event that changes the face of nations , but has always happened and countries are always changing so what is your point ?

Anyway it is dicussed and is voted on , the problem is that the parties that have a strong anti-immigrant basis generally tend to be populated by brainless morons who fail to have any policy apart from blame the foriegners for everything so they never amount to much .

The 90+ age demographic is now the fastest growing age bracket in the UK...a worrying statistic.

Yeah damn Brits with their healthcare and pensions , them old gits should do the decent thing and die at an early age like they used to ...it is neccesary for upholding tradition and quelling so called worrying statistics , 70+ is quite sufficient , everyone can applaud the old buggers for hanging on that long , but when they get past 90 its just obscene .
But anyway since the economic issue seems to be providing for the old gits can you not just raise the pension age again , or perhaps institute a cull when people go beyond the working age ?

[InsaneApache]

So its an identity altering event that changes the face of nations , but has always happened and countries are always changing so what is your point ?

While this is true Tribes it's the scale of the immigration over the last decade that's different. There weren't that many Normans/Huguenots/Flemish/Bangladeshis etc etc that settled in the UK. It's funny hearing the descendents of southern Asians talking about those 'bloody foreigners coming over here taking our jobs' it takes me back to the 60s.

[Adrian II]

Funny report, by the way - the report quoted in the OP. It says on page 13:

[..] it would not be right to estimate
the total contribution of all migrant workers
simply by subtracting their productive output
and numbers respectively from the numerator
and denominator of the GDP per head ratio
calculation. The integration of migrant workers
in the economy, and their ability to complement
the activities of other workers, means that the
impact on national output of a total withdrawal
of migrant labour would be likely to be very
substantial. However, quantifying this impact is
diffi cult given the lack of data in this area and
the large number of assumptions that would
underpin estimates of productive potential.

In other words, the economic contribution of migrants is 'likely' to be 'substantial', but we will simply discount it because we can't measure it. And let's subtract their productive output and numbers from GPD p/h anyway.

Idiots.

[Fragony]

In other words, the economic contribution of migrants is 'likely' to be 'substantial', but we will simply discount it because we can't measure it. And let's subtract their productive output and numbers from GPD p/h anyway.

Idiots.

What's so hard about getting data? Can't take a dump without the tax agency knowing what kind of toiletpaper you use.