Mass Immigration; No Benefit.

[InsaneApache]

Whenever a minister is asked about high levels of immigration, the same answer is trotted out: migrants boost the economy, fill jobs that Britons cannot or will not do, and pay taxes that benefit the exchequer. Last December the home secretary, Jacqui Smith - a former economics teacher - talked of "the purity of the macroeconomic case for migration".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...publicservices

81% of new jobs created since 1997 have gone to immigrants. Nice one Tony and your racist henchman McBroon, are you moles for the BNP?

[Fragony]

This has to be an april fools prank!!!! How can the mass immigration of people who can read or write from medievalstan where they still eat eachother not be good for the economy ???

[HoreTore]

Might be true for you overpopulated brits, the few people living in mountains over here would crumble without immigration though. We have a country with a size requiring at least 10-15 million humans to be effective, but we're only 4,8.... Which means that either we have to make a LOT of babies, which isn't going to happen, or the best option; import another 5 million.

[InsaneApache]

This has to be an april fools prank!!!! How can the mass immigration of people who can read or write from medievalstan where they still eat eachother not be good for the economy ???

We're doing immigrants today Frag, it's moslems tomorrow.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Surely immigration is needed for jobs Britons refuse to do, the government argues. But they refuse to do these jobs only at current pay rates. In many cases, higher wages - never popular with employers - could solve the "shortage". In other cases increased mechanisation could bypass the need for migrant labour. Many employers today rely on the skills and hard work of migrants. But in the longer run, when wages can be increased and production methods changed, there is no valid argument for continued high net immigration.

So the government must force employers to pay a much higher minimum wage and thus solve the immigrant "problem".

Nice red flag you've got flying there, IA.


Anecdotally, we've never needed to employ immigrant workers (at least for agricultural work - we have pretty loyal tenants) but plenty of neighbours have. Ireland has an even greater immigrant workforce than the UK - 12% of the workforce, IIRC - and now the Poles (particularly) are seeing greater economic activity back home, they are not coming here.

Suddenly, construction projects and harvests are facing grinding to a halt. They may not add much to your economy, but they sure help here.

(Anyway, I have always found it hard to stomach any Irishman who complains about immigration, given our history).

[InsaneApache]

Nice red flag you've got flying there, IA

Perhaps a shade of pale pink.

[Fragony]

We're doing immigrants today Frag, it's moslems tomorrow.

Have to start somewhere I am flexible

[Fragony]

oh gah to it

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentlemen,

InsaneApache started a topical, if controversial thread. Let's start discussing the subject rather than making beastly commentaries on immigrants/hosts.

[InsaneApache]

I can only say Sopocka to that.



















I love it with a bit of stilton and picallilly on tiger bread, washed down with a blond beer!

[Papewaio]

Can UK which sent out so many people to so many other countries hold the moral high ground against immigration?

[Adrian II]

Can UK which sent out so many people to so many other countries hold the moral high ground against immigration?

It's not about morality, it's about net benefit to the British economy.

Based on the committee president's article, the net effect seems more or less zero, except for the lowest-paid whose wages have somewhat decreased due to immigrant competition.

However, I wonder if the economic benefits have been properly assessed in that report. Fiscal calculations are only part of the picture. For instance I would expect certain export benefits from the presence of large communities of immigrants with ties to their countries of origin.

[Tribesman]

For instance I would expect certain export benefits from the presence of large communities of immigrants with ties to their countries of origin.

What you mean like exporting cash , importing tobacco and then exporting more cash ?

(Anyway, I have always found it hard to stomach any Irishman who complains about immigration, given our history).

Stomach this then , I have been on a job the past couple of weeks (quitting friday but I ain't told them yet), a right mixed bunch , people from every corner of the globe .
There are 16 slovaks , good craftsmen , hard workers , good finish ...they are getting paid the minimum approved starting rate for completely unskilled labourers...well they would be getting paid that but apparently they havn't had any wages at all for the past 10 weeks .
The bunch doing the road and pipes are working 7-10 5 days and 7-6 saturday..all at a flat rate of 7 euros .

Now there is nothing wrong with immigration , but virtual slavery is another matter entirely .
Of course there is worse , the crowd down at Moneypoint that did a bunk owing 150+ Poles 3 months wages , or the crowd in Dublin who were paying all the Turks 2 euros an hour

[Adrian II]

What you mean like exporting cash , importing tobacco and then exporting more cash ?

Munitions, rather..

Seriously, US studies have found a high immigration-trade link. I was just wondering if the same could be found in the UK.

[Papewaio]

It's not about morality, it's about net benefit to the British economy.

I concur, my tongue was firmly planted in my check.

[Papewaio]

However, I wonder if the economic benefits have been properly assessed in that report. Fiscal calculations are only part of the picture. For instance I would expect certain export benefits from the presence of large communities of immigrants with ties to their countries of origin.

And other areas of life. Or does no one in the UK want to eat a curry anymore?

I'm sure things there is a net benefit in food. Its not like you can't have a roast one night and a chicken kebab the next. Food is one of the better upswings of immigration.

[Incongruous]

wrong post

[Incongruous]

Before I got all angry and stuff, I was wondering what you more educated fullas thought?
Do you think mass immigration is another way for rich capitalists to get richer, while weakening the working class, with the help of the govt?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Now there is nothing wrong with immigration , but virtual slavery is another matter entirely .

Agreed. That's why I'd have some sympathy with the communist IA when he demands employers pay more.

[Ironside]

Stomach this then , I have been on a job the past couple of weeks (quitting friday but I ain't told them yet), a right mixed bunch , people from every corner of the globe .
There are 16 slovaks , good craftsmen , hard workers , good finish ...they are getting paid the minimum approved starting rate for completely unskilled labourers...well they would be getting paid that but apparently they havn't had any wages at all for the past 10 weeks .
The bunch doing the road and pipes are working 7-10 5 days and 7-6 saturday..all at a flat rate of 7 euros .

Now there is nothing wrong with immigration , but virtual slavery is another matter entirely .
Of course there is worse , the crowd down at Moneypoint that did a bunk owing 150+ Poles 3 months wages , or the crowd in Dublin who were paying all the Turks 2 euros an hour

How's your local newspapers? When stuff like this comes up in local media there's a lot of noice about it and usually the company in question is forced to pay in the end (although there was one case when the company declared bankrupsy (=phoney company), but I think the workers got payed from some other place in that case).

[Big_John]

And other areas of life. Or does no one in the UK want to eat a curry anymore?

I'm sure things there is a net benefit in food. Its not like you can't have a roast one night and a chicken kebab the next. Food is one of the better upswings of immigration.

recipes can be written down.

[Tribesman]

When stuff like this comes up in local media there's a lot of noice about it and usually the company in question is forced to pay in the end (although there was one case when the company declared bankrupsy (=phoney company), but I think the workers got payed from some other place in that case).

Well a couple of examples , just for a flavour of things .

The town square was being redeveloped ,the unions and media picked up on the fact that the workers were being paid a pittance(well below minimum wage) , big support for the workers , news stories , strike , pickets the lot . Then on the monday the firm had dissappeared and abandoned the job leaving centre of town in a complete mess .

The one I mentioned with the Turks on 2 euros an hour , that caused a Dublinwide strike , even the government said it was disgraceful and firms like that shouldn't be allowed to operate in the State ...then the governmnet gave the firm a prime 58 million contract .

Irish ferries ...once again 2 euros an hour for the Thais , big support , strike , eventual payrise ...... followed by getting rid of all the workers and re-registering the company where pay and conditions legislation are very different .

Another crowd in town , always a high turnover of workers and a ridiculously high accident rate , finally after killing another two of their employees they got hit with a massive fine . They announced that as the fine was so large and they could no longer afford insurance they would have to close sacking all their workers .
They started up again with an entirely Eastern European workforce and carry on killing and maiming them instead .

Munitions, rather..

No look at Limerick , the stuff is coming into the country , not being exported .

Seriously, US studies have found a high immigration-trade link. I was just wondering if the same could be found in the UK.

Well I don't know about the UK as I havn't worked there much in the past decade , but one immigrant trade link here is tractors .
There is a big rash of "farmers" who may only have 10 acres of cregg but have the idea that they just have to have the biggest most powerful tractor in the parish . This has led to a big glut in the market on second hand tractors . With new nations in the EU now getting the agri-subsidies these are getting snapped up at bargain prices and sent over (especially Zetors and Belarus obviously)

[HoreTore]

And other areas of life. Or does no one in the UK want to eat a curry anymore?

I'm sure things there is a net benefit in food. Its not like you can't have a roast one night and a chicken kebab the next. Food is one of the better upswings of immigration.

Couldn't agree more. I'd die from starvation rather than eat norwegian food.

[Fragony]

Are we really going to excuse mass immigration policy's because of the food a very limited amount of immigrants could also introduce? Maybe 1% starts a restaurant whoopiedoo

[Ronin]

The simple fact is that the fertility rate for the industrialized nations has been bellow the value necessary for population renewal.... that alone ensure that we need immigration....

and let´s not forget the fact that nowadays everyone wants to be a doctor or a software designer....nobody wants to pave roads and stuff like that....

so if you are so mad about immigration I propose you go home right now....tell the missus to drop her panties and do something about it.....preferably several times.......unless people want to do that immigration is necessary.

[Fragony]

The simple fact is that the fertility rate for the industrialized nations has been bellow the value necessary for population renewal.... that alone ensure that we need immigration....

and let´s not forget the fact that nowadays everyone wants to be a doctor or a software designer....nobody wants to pave roads and stuff like that....

so if you are so mad about immigration I propose you go home right now....tell the missus to drop her panties and do something about it.....preferably several times.......unless people want to do that immigration is necessary.

We need baby's only to keep wealthfare state going, that same wealthfare state that is burdened by massive immigrations and the rediculous amounts of money it costs that don't fly. We can't use them, except the poles they have the wrong mentality.

[Adrian II]

The simple fact is that the fertility rate for the industrialized nations has been bellow the value necessary for population renewal.... that alone ensure that we need immigration....

Not at all. Population renewal is a totem pole for latter day Indians. Lower fertility rates are a major factor behind the economic success and mass welfare of western states.

I'm all for dropping panties, but not in the interest of GDP...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I, um, agree with Adrian. We are overcrowded as is, particually in the Uk, population fall is desirable and there's at least csome evidence that people have less kids when things are overcrowded. Look at the Baby Boomers for the opposite.

The immigrants generally don't pay national insurrance but still use the Welfare State, this makes things worse for the rest of us. With the looming rescesion this is a particually big problem. Further, wages at the lower end of the economy are being depressed and those jobs are losing whatever prestige they had because "only immigrants do them."

It gets worse, because we have a social problem. Too many people on benefits because of a miss-managed welfare state. The immigrants give the economy a crutch and the career-unemployed an excuse. Then the immigrants work the joke out and jump on the bandwagon, so things get worse.

We need to sort our house out over here and with the best will in the world mass immigration is not helping.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The immigrants generally don't pay national insurrance but still use the Welfare State, this makes things worse for the rest of us. .

I'm intrigued as to how you work that statement out.

Immigrant workers are, more often than not, employed. In the UK, it's employers who are responsible for paying national insurance for their employees.

Thus, if the NI is not being paid, the employer is either exploiting the worker (by employing illegally) or avoiding HMRC. Either way, it isn't the immigrant worker's fault.

[Big_John]

Couldn't agree more. I'd die from starvation rather than eat norwegian food.

what is that, various cured or fermented fishes?