Volga Kiptchacks denied NATO membership....

[Adrian II]

Far more than meets the eye, puts things in a somewhat different light than the usual presentations. Thanks!

It shows how the Nato issue is intimately connected to Greece's refusal to recognize its own large Macedonian minority - or any other minority, for that matter, given the rampant ethnic chauvinism of successive governments and the Orthodox Church (another religion of peace, no doubt).

The result is often ricidulous. In 2001, a man was convicted to 15 months in prison for promoting Vlach, a minority language. Mr Sotiris Bletsas was accused of disseminating "false information" about a European minority language. His only crime was to refer to the existence of the Vlach language in information material produced by Brussels, and financed by the Commission. In other words, he was convicted for using the freedom of expression that is guaranteed by most modern democraties as well as by the EU of which Greece is, sadly, a member state.

[hellenes]

It shows how the Nato issue is intimately connected to Greece's refusal to recognize its own large Macedonian minority - or any other minority, for that matter, given the rampant ethnic chauvinism of successive governments and the Orthodox Church (another religion of peace, no doubt).

The result is often ricidulous. In 2001, a man was convicted to 15 months in prison for promoting Vlach, a minority language. Mr Sotiris Bletsas was accused of disseminating "false information" about a European minority language. His only crime was to refer to the existence of the Vlach language in information material produced by Brussels, and financed by the Commission. In other words, he was convicted for using the freedom of expression that is guaranteed by most modern democraties as well as by the EU of which Greece is, sadly, a member state.

What "Matsedonian"? Some Volga Kypchaks that came in 7th cent AD? So should the Volgan Administrative Area in Russia around Volgograd be renamed "Matsedonia"? Oh and if some of the Kyptchaks are trying to plagiarise a history while lacking one of their own what should we do? Bend over? As for that finished agent of Mr Soros "Bletsas" one should first ask who were Averof Zappas and other Vlachs that contributed hugely in the modern Hellenic state....would they do this if they didnt consider themselves Greek? Ignorance is a bliss surely...

[Furious Mental]

This is the 21st century. No one cares about your medieval ethnic grudges or who "owns" Alexander the Great. If the intention of your government was to frustrate its allies and make your country look like a petty little third world banana republic, it succeeded brilliantly.

[The Wizard]

"Macedonia" has been an entity since Tito took over Yugoslavia in 1944-1945. In fact, from what I've read, there were specifically Macedonian groupings, outside the Greek part of the area, from the early 20th century onwards.

Oh, and:

This is the 21st century. No one cares about your medieval ethnic grudges or who "owns" Alexander the Great. If the intention of your government was to frustrate its allies and make your country look like a petty little third world banana republic, it succeeded brilliantly.

All walk out with different banners.

" Hellenic Genocide !!11"

" Alexander The Macedon And Some Genocide !!11"

" Kosovan Genocide !!11"

" Albanian Genocide !!11 "

" Probably A Croatian Genocide !!11 "

" Serbian Genocide !!11 "

" Bulgarian Genocide !!11 "

" We Didn't Kill Anyone Dammit !!11 "

Posts of the month.

[Sarmatian]

"Macedonia" has been an entity since Tito took over Yugoslavia in 1944-1945. In fact, from what I've read, there were specifically Macedonian groupings, outside the Greek part of the area, from the early 20th century onwards.

Where did you read that? At the beggiing of the 20th century, there were two groups of people in Macedonia - Greeks and Slavs. The problem was who those Slavs were... there were a lot of incertanties, in no small part due to Serbian and Bulgarian propaganda, but in general, all scientists from France to Russia agreed that slavic Macedonians are a mix of Bulgarians and Serbs, slightly more Bulgarian influence.

Anyway, this is not the topic. If we agree that modern Greeks don't have that much in common with ancient Greeks, slavic Macedonians certainly have even less...

[The Wizard]

You misinterpret what Adrian said. Macedonia only got into economic troubles once Serbia started mucking around in Yugoslavia trying to establish and maintain its hegemony over the area and it got sanctioned by international bodies to which the country was a signatory. Greece then boycotted it because Greeks like to break the treaties they signed and spurn their allies.

Where did you read that? At the beggiing of the 20th century, there were two groups of people in Macedonia - Greeks and Slavs. The problem was who those Slavs were... there were a lot of incertanties, in no small part due to Serbian and Bulgarian propaganda, but in general, all scientists from France to Russia agreed that slavic Macedonians are a mix of Bulgarians and Serbs, slightly more Bulgarian influence.

IMRO

Admittedly, after this was crushed not much was left. But still, "Macedonia" as a seperate entity with a seperate identity is a lot older than 1991.

Oh, and as for achievements: Macedonia is the only part of former Yugoslavia to have seceded from Yugoslavia peacefully and without any violence, to my knowledge (I'm not counting Montenegro because they seceded after the end of the Yugoslav Wars).

[Sarmatian]

You misinterpret what Adrian said. Macedonia only got into economic troubles once Serbia started mucking around in Yugoslavia trying to establish and maintain its hegemony over the area and it got sanctioned by international bodies to which the country was a signatory. Greece then boycotted it because Greeks like to break the treaties they signed and spurn their allies.

No, I was just saying that it was known that secession would hurt Macedonian economy. Sanctions imposed on FRY didn't help and made matters worse, no doubt, but it wasn't the only reason...

IMRO
Admittedly, after this was crushed not much was left. But still, "Macedonia" as a seperate entity with a seperate identity is a lot older than 1991.

Oh, and as for achievements: Macedonia is the only part of former Yugoslavia to have seceded from Yugoslavia peacefully and without any violence, to my knowledge (I'm not counting Montenegro because they seceded after the end of the Yugoslav Wars).

Well, if you read that article (not to mention that it is wikipedia article whose neutrality is disputed furthemore) you'll see that it was essentialy an organization of Bulgarian Macedonians. And I never mentioned 1991, I said pre-ww2...

You don't have to explain to me achievments of FYROM. I don't have any problems with that, but that can't be used as a mean to get national unity and arouse national fervor. That was my point. A politician can't speak in front of 100,000 people and hope to raise national awareness with "We had a GDP growth of 3% and we left Yugoslavia peacefully." But if he says "We are the heirs of Alexander the Great, we are the heirs of Samuilo, we have been fighting Romans, Ottomans, Bulgars, Serbs, Greeks etc... and finaly we have our freedom blah, blah, blah...", now, that is another thing... You get my drift? I didn't try to downplay anything but to point out that such logical and practical stuff don't have much impact on great masses of the people, expecially on people who weren't sure leaving Yugoslavia was a right thing to do... They wanted to know why did they left Yugoslavia, not how they did it...

[HoreTore]

Oh, and as for achievements: Macedonia is the only part of former Yugoslavia to have seceded from Yugoslavia peacefully and without any violence, to my knowledge (I'm not counting Montenegro because they seceded after the end of the Yugoslav Wars).

Didn't Slovenia also go peacefully? If so, then both the north and the south as gone through peace, it's all those bastards in the middle who can't work it out like civilized slovenians and macedonians

[Geoffrey S]

What "Matsedonian"? Some Volga Kypchaks that came in 7th cent AD? So should the Volgan Administrative Area in Russia around Volgograd be renamed "Matsedonia"? Oh and if some of the Kyptchaks are trying to plagiarise a history while lacking one of their own what should we do? Bend over?

I'm tempted to point out the tenuous links at best between modern and ancient Greece.

[hellenes]

I'm tempted to point out the tenuous links at best between modern and ancient Greece.

Im even more tempted to quote what Dirty Harry said about opinions....

[Crazed Rabbit]

Adrian brings up a very good point. Greece should be kicked forthright out of NATO. If they don't honor the treaty, let's not give them our protection.

Let them take their whining about millennia old pissing matches elsewhere. You don't see the US going on about how we kicked British butt at New Orleans in 1813. Of course, we also have done other important things since then, so our whole national pride isn't based on that one event.

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You don't see the US going on about how we kicked British butt at New Orleans in 1813.

Probably because you ended up losing that war.

[Sarmatian]

Macedonia has the same problem as all artificially created nations have, namely "who are we and what is our past". Usually becoming a nation takes some time and happens naturally but in case of Macedonia, it happened in the blink of an eye. It was like "WTF, we have a state, what we are supposed to do with it???".

They started to claim anything that happened in the area of their present country or that have some resemblence to it (like to the name) as theirs. Naturally that's supposed to piss off those to who it really belongs to. It's like Serbs claiming that Constantine the Great was a Serb because he was born in what today is Serbia (in the lack of a better example). A point that modern Greece haven't got much in common with ancient Greece is valid, but Alexander and all that stuff still is part of their heritage, and it isn't unimportant.

To an alliance of around twenty countries that alltogether have almost one billion population an argument between countries that have 10 and 2 million people might seem silly, but what's the point of Nato if not all members have a say? If Greece and other smaller countries aren't supposed to have a say, why did Nato give them Veto power?

Kicking Greece out of Nato would be fun to see. Not that it will ever happen of course. There are two possible scenarios: 1) Greece cave in under pressure, 2) Macedonia doesn't get in. Greece out of Nato is just unthinkable...

BTW, hellenes, how did you manage to clasify them as Volga Kipchaks?

[Conradus]

Im even more tempted to quote what Dirty Harry said about opinions....

Why should the Greeks be allowed to call their country Hellas, if they won't allow their neighbours to be called Macedonia? The ancient Greeks have very little in common with the Greeks now. They've had about 2000 years of occupation and immigration to thank for that.

[Geoffrey S]

Im even more tempted to quote what Dirty Harry said about opinions....

Go ahead, make my day.

[seireikhaan]

So, a Greek, a Macedonian, a Kosovar, an Albanian, a Turk, a Croat, a Serb, and a Bulgarian all walk into a bar, and...

[LeftEyeNine]

So, a Greek, a Macedonian, a Kosovar, an Albanian, a Turk, a Croat, a Serb, and a Bulgarian all walk into a bar, and...

All walk out with different banners.

" Hellenic Genocide !!11"

" Alexander The Macedon And Some Genocide !!11"

" Kosovan Genocide !!11"

" Albanian Genocide !!11 "

" Probably A Croatian Genocide !!11 "

" Serbian Genocide !!11 "

" Bulgarian Genocide !!11 "

" We Didn't Kill Anyone Dammit !!11 "

[CountArach]

Go ahead, make my day.

Do you feel lucky punk? Well, do ya?

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Greek troll using Turkic tribal names as curse words again. Hilarious!
.

[rvg]

What "Matsedonian"? Some Volga Kypchaks that came in 7th cent AD? So should the Volgan Administrative Area in Russia around Volgograd be renamed "Matsedonia"? Oh and if some of the Kyptchaks are trying to plagiarise a history while lacking one of their own what should we do? Bend over? As for that finished agent of Mr Soros "Bletsas" one should first ask who were Averof Zappas and other Vlachs that contributed hugely in the modern Hellenic state....would they do this if they didnt consider themselves Greek? Ignorance is a bliss surely...

Doesn't matter. Macedonians can call themselves and their country whatever they feel like. Greece shoul have no say in what is clearly a personal business of another sovereign nation.

[Furious Mental]

Well part of the reason why people in regions like the Balkans keep killing each other is that they can't get over their stupid grudges. If they stopped caring about some battle in the middle ages (or, perhaps I should say stopped letting demagogues exploit them in this way) maybe they wouldn't have so many wars.

[LeftEyeNine]

Well part of the reason why people in regions like the Balkans keep killing each other is that they can't get over their stupid grudges. If they stopped caring about some battle in the middle ages (or, perhaps I should say stopped letting demagogues exploit them in this way) maybe they wouldn't have so many wars.

Post #99 please.