City Defence

[Rhyfelwyr]

Since the AI has a nasty habbit of besieging me with crappy quarter-stacks and sometimes even full stacks, I've developed some strategies for keeping hold of the cities on the edge of my empire.

Typically, I only defend the walls if the AI's siege equiopments is limited to a ram or two. Usually, I defend the city centre itself, putting all units to the passageway where I predict the AI will come, that way I don't need to worry about my units routing.

Obviously, Schiltrons are great for this, but fare poorly against enemy infantry. Archers can be a great help but I tend not to have them in cities. This is where ballistas become the best unit in the game. Two units of ballistas will rout far superior armies, and can rake up kills of 500 plus. To help the rout, I often send a General round the streets to hit the side or rear of the enemies main force, enough to hurt the units already in combat with my infantry. I time this to cause a chain rout, and as the enemy try to flee past my General the cavalry go into hyper mode and make entire units disappear in seconds. One time, my General and his bodyguards made 150 kills, and took over 1,100 prisoners! Got him 9 experience, from 0 at the start.

Any other strategies for taking out those nasty AI armies, half of which belong to Milan?

[Quintus.JC]

Depends on what faction you're using to defend with.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

I only Caledonians method when defending against overwhelming odds. Usually a U-shape formation of spearmen around the gate and some archers and heavy infantry on the walls is enough to completely wipe out an enemy army with minor losses, which means less then 10% and usually even less. I never use the schiltrom formation. I prefer the U-shape formation. Any enemy that enters this formation will automatically route. I usually lose more men to while waiting two turns before the enemy attacks then during the actual battle.

[Ratwar]

For me, the most effective defense has been a U-shape inside the town square. That way, you hit the enemy units on the flanks, reducing their moral without having to worry about routing. Then, if you have a Family Member in the town, circle around the battle and do the standard rear charge, and watch the routing begin . Of course, if you don't have a Family Member, the city/castle probably wasn't that important anyways.

Still, generally, if the AI lacks siege weapons besides Towers, Rams, and ladders, defending the wall is my preferred strategy. The bonus you get on the walls is very good, plus the chance to kill the Rams and deny the enemy calvary is very useful against factions like the Mongols. I've never found the schiltrom to be very useful. In most siege battles, there tends to be a huge clump of enemies with all types of units, not just calvary.

[Eikon the Magistrate]

Cities Defense
1)As a general rule I will try to sally and destroy the towers rams ladders etc. Militia are good for this. The AI very rarely reuses a ram or tower so all you have to do is engage the unit pushing it,make sure that unit is engaging urs and the siege equip isnt moving, then run ur unit over to the next ram/tower to stop it.

2)It can be said that any unit you send out the gate is in most cases toast. You should not expect to get it back at least not in 1 piece. They will rout back to your gate (which will not open of itself) this is the final act of bravery for that unit because it will draw the whole AI force behind it...right into the *kill zone* in front of the gate. Better to lose 200 militia and set up the fight how you want it, besides after retraining they often get chevrons and the towers will more than avenge their loss.You can try and open the gate to let em in as they rout but make sure the way is clear so the gate closes or else the AI will pour in eventually the AI will back off then its safer.(Ill usually just wait,more die but as long as 1 guy in the unit lives I can retrain afterwards).

3)Will try to leave a tower/ladder as is so that the fools will send their whole inf force to that spot. Of course this *spot* on the wall is where Ive placed the rest of my inf that I havent sent out the gate. Its useful to have at least 1 unit of cav of some sort (missle/light cav, but any old cav will do with decent morale) to harass the AI and cause ur towers to inflict more dmg(just run em about near your walls and watch the chase)also they can be used well to break up the ram/tower forces since they move faster than inf.

4)If you have killed off the inf or they are all going onto the walls try opening the gates briefly to lure in the enemy cav within better range of your towers,once they start chasing run in and close the gate again.

5)If the besieging army does not have the ability to break a hole in your wall theres no reason to lose the extra firepower from your towers by not manning them,its free and long range so may as well use it. If its just 1 ballista or catapult attacking that you have the ability with archers or cav to destroy then you should try to do that if possible.

6)Some siege engines are good for defense like trebs since they throw cows and can take out towers,also throw over walls easily so they are useful as a component (1/2). Catapults and ballistae for shooting down the streets or as a *wall* to stop a charge or plug a hole; I cant get them to shoot over walls unfortunately.

7)I too dislike Milan. Intense hatred of the lowly xbow militia here...

[Duke Bart]

I also go for the u shape but then the problem is that a single unit of heavy infantry will tear up all of my spearmen and that narrow corridor suddenly becomes a deathtrap.

Therefore i always try to leave myself an out for two reasons, First of all if it is clear that resisting is a waste of time, i leave the city for the AI and go for hit and run methods because they are so intent on just marching to the center. This way i take few losses and they take many so i can just retake my city in notime.

The other reason i try and have a side street or two available is so that i can move my units around so i can counter superior troops with better positioning. Even dismounted knights will lose when trapped like that.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I find schiltrons slaughter cavalry, although I also keep some Town Militia to counter enemy infantry. I've noticed Town Militia can even cause significant casualties to Armoured Sergeants, because the sergeants cavalry bonus works against them when fighting infantry.

Nobody else a fan of the defensive Ballistas then? Come on, 500+ casualties...

[Pater Familias]

Desperately short of defenders (400+ Mad Hungarians at the gates of Iasi vs. about 200 brave Russian lads), I needed something using fewer troops than a U-formation (I had two militia and a spearman, plus my general). So I set my spears at a 45% angle just inside the gate, with my bodyguard a short distance opposite them.
The attackers coming through the gate turned toward the spearmen ... then took a full cavalry charge from the rear/left flank.
Result: Routing, confusion, dead enemy general, more routing and heroic victory.
It's high-risk to commit your general in the first charge, but it worked.

[Ramses II CP]

I always sally out to stop the ram and then hold them on the walls. Having the defensive bonus on the walls is better than having the infinite morale of the town square nine times out of ten. The AI is pretty much incapable of capturing Huge Walls from you without a ram, so stop the ram = win. I haven't lost a siege in vanilla in so long I can't remember the last time, which is why I go after the AI in the field.

[ReiseReise]

[Monsieur Alphonse]

@ReiseReise: that is a beautiful piece of art and it explains how to defend a wall.

@Caledonian: I prefer a catapult over a ballista because a catapult can fire over the heads of your men.

@Ramses: I prefer the enemy to breach the gate. In that case I am certain that I will slaughter the enemy.

[Cadwallon]

Stakes. Any bowmen with stakes are the best defenders. I had the polish bowmen following a successful crusade in Antioch, and absolutely wiped out the Mongols when they invade with their typical cavalry heavy stacks.

You initially position your archers on the front gate, position your spearmen and melee infantry in a u shape and then start the battle. Send you archers back up on the walls, wait for them to smash down the gates and the killing field starts. Stakes seem to kill cavalry - even heavily armoured elite mongol cavalry - so easily this function must be broken. Even elephants seem to succumb.

[Ramses II CP]

@ReiseReise: that is a beautiful piece of art and it explains how to defend a wall.

@Caledonian: I prefer a catapult over a ballista because a catapult can fire over the heads of your men.

@Ramses: I prefer the enemy to breach the gate. In that case I am certain that I will slaughter the enemy.

I sympathize with you in that your way leads to a more fun battle, but (Presuming huge walls) you can defend a city against multiple AI stacks simultaneously with any 4-6 random freebie militia companies if you stop the ram instead.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

I sympathize with you in that your way leads to a more fun battle, but (Presuming huge walls) you can defend a city against multiple AI stacks simultaneously with any 4-6 random freebie militia companies if you stop the ram instead.

In almost all my campaigns the AI always builds about six rams. Stopping one is easy. stopping six in a row is near impossible.

[Ramses II CP]

Ahh, I can see how you would think that, but if the men you send out against ram #1 (Town militia ) rout with the enemy close to the gates the gates stay closed and the AI can't get the ram to them around the routers. Plus it's too stupid to even try to capture those guys clogging the way, not that the buggy gate area makes it easy even for a player. One routing peasant can stop a thousand angry Mongols with a dozen rams.

...but like I said, where's the fun in that? Go get 'em in the field is my methodology. Sieges aren't MTW2's strength, unfortunately.

[PrestigeX]

I find it pretty easy to defend in a siege,
unless..
the enemy has artillery.. OMG
its the most painful thing ever - the fact that in M2tw x6.0 is the fastest you can go is a major dissability. In MTW (number one) u could REALLY , i mean REALLY speed that part up

all the ai does is just knock down everything until it runs out of ammo.. Its like "Okay, u got the walls, u got the towers, okay.. attack! .. ' but no, they have to shoot another random wall that they aren't even gonna enter thru..

[trickydicky]

I find it pretty easy to defend in a siege,
unless..
the enemy has artillery.. OMG
its the most painful thing ever - the fact that in M2tw x6.0 is the fastest you can go is a major dissability. In MTW (number one) u could REALLY , i mean REALLY speed that part up

all the ai does is just knock down everything until it runs out of ammo.. Its like "Okay, u got the walls, u got the towers, okay.. attack! .. ' but no, they have to shoot another random wall that they aren't even gonna enter thru..

That's really frustrating that is. I had the same thing last night in my Portugal campaign. The Scots were sieging Leon with about 8 Trebs, and the rest were Noble Pikes/Swords.

They punched 2-3 holes in the walls before my towers finally took them out, then they only entered through one wall....where they were promptly chewed up and spat out.

[Old Geezer]

In some cases I would like to be able to open my gate just to entice the poor devils in to the grinder so that they'd forget about assaulting the walls. Three pike or armored spear units will hold a mass of AI troops in place and the AI's reinforcements pile up under the hot oil bath. The pile of bodies in that small area can be astounding. I don't think the gatehouse ever runs out of hot oil.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I really wish there was a 10x or maybe bigger speed setting to help things along when the AI decides to knock down every wall section, and even more importantly to get through those passive AI battles.

I've even had enemy siege units march through my city to destroy towers on the far side!

[G^2]

I generally only have a few spear militia and one or two units of archers or xbows when my cities get attacked, because I try to fight mostly field battles. I usually, set two spear units right under the gates and bow units on the walls with a unite of spears to fend off any seige towers. Similar to what Old Geezer stated, the two siltroms units pin the enemy while oil is poured on their heads. Man, I love the 1.3 patch. Usually works unless the enemy brings artillery, then I pin them in the streets in a slug fest.

[Duke Bart]

I have gone over to the ballista method, works great in cities, not so much castles though.

Most cities have that one main street the AI always go down and so a few units of balista can really really hurt them there. For some reason they suddenly turn accurate on me!

[Eikon the Magistrate]

As a suggestion:

Disclaimer... its kinda cheap

If you happen to have many siege engines in the city being attacked you can always use them to make *walls* in replacement of the walls that are being broken down by the attacker. As evidenced in field battles, forces cannot move through a engine...soo place that unit next to the wall being attacked, then once the wall goes try to move it into the spot. It wont usually completely stop the AI from coming through but it will be a trickle not a pour which is easily countered. This way as well any units on the walls still wont become insta routers from being surrounded. This also works well in bridge battles, they act rather like large shields.

[Gaiseric]

LOL, Nice Pic

Anyone have some advice on how to defend a Polish, Russian, or Hungarian, city. Its hard because their milita can't do schiltrom. I usually just fill my free upkeep slots with them and defend their cities with tougher castle built units. This can get expensive though. IMO, the best defence is a good offense, but only take what you can hold.

[Old Geezer]

Gaiseric, have you tried recruiting mercenaries or using left-over crusader spearmen? I think maybe they can do schiltrom. If you can get armored spearmen or similar unit they should be able to hold almost as well; just have them in 6 ranks or so.

Excellent reminder, Eikon. If I can ever get the cowardly Mongols to attack one of my 6 settlements that they are wandering around I'll use your suggestion. What's with the Mongols, anyway? They move toward a city, I reinforce it to capacity, and they run away. They seem to be characters from Dante's Purgatory. Somehow they are at war with the Pope who has an army very near them and they won't attack it. Are they scripted to wander around and just be annoying for a certain time? They never seem to go straight toward their supposed home sites. I am seriously considering offering them a settlement just to get them started doing something.

[Gaiseric]

Gaiseric, have you tried recruiting mercenaries or using left-over crusader spearmen? I think maybe they can do schiltrom. If you can get armored spearmen or similar unit they should be able to hold almost as well; just have them in 6 ranks or so.

Thanks, I will try mercs if I need too. Upkeep can be high though so I will probably only use them in an emergencey. I like that mercs have a recrutment pool and can be retrained every now and then. I've used them before in battle and they should be able to help with my defense, rather then melt away like my milita does.

[G^2]

Well I took the advice on this tread and tried the ballista aproach last night. I had three ballistas, one general, two Italian Spear Militia, and one Peasant Archer units in Crete. The Biz. Army attacked with their king and a full stack. Placed my entire army in the town center with the three ballistas pointing down the street the enemy would advance from. Used my general and militia to protect my flanks. Worked great earned a heroic victory by wiping out almost all of the Biz. Army along with thier King and only lost about 100 soldier mostly due to arrow fire. Gaiseric, try using ballistas, then it doesn't matter if your units can form schiltrom or not.

[Eikon the Magistrate]

Anyone have some advice on how to defend a Polish, Russian, or Hungarian, city. Its hard because their milita can't do schiltrom.

Use your factions strengths to your advantage in defense/offense. For those above it would be cav soo instead of having mainly INF to defend..mix some cav in as well, use them to attack and stop the rams or destroy artillery pieces..then run whats left of em back inside your city, keep em there until the attacker moves another ram/ladder/tower then sally them forth to defeat the heathens again.

Or... do as the above states but use missle cav instead... the attacker gets soo spread out your towers are doing pretty much max dmg cuz of the time/energy the attacker is losing chasing your missle cav about..which is also firing at them, once out of arrows use the cav aspect of the unit.

Once again tho... if you have the ability to hold your walls it is far better than a street or city center except in the most adverse conditions. A street and city center have no tower support,whats more if you are forced into that scenario it implies that you do not have sufficient forces in that city to begin with since you have left your strongest point for a weaker one AND you are retreating in the process.(Timurids excluded or mass cannons from neone)

As for getting the AI to engage your strong point IE a castle or the like, it helps to underman the garrison a lil bit. Excluding the cost of it, the AI will not usually match stack vs stack unless its castle vs city units (DFK vs town militia for example) or a crusade. Also I find that if you have a super general with your force they will not usually attack if you have a large force as well. Instead of putting a full 20 units into the city or castle be more selective of unit type (dosent seem to matter what type or exp they have for the AI to engage) and leave out 2-4. If its a citadel or fort dont garrison a officer in it at all since you dont need him there to win.

City defense - Spearmen/Archers
Castle Defense - Archers/Spearmen

[makkyo]

Stakes. Any bowmen with stakes are the best defenders.

Agreed. As the English I had to keep Hamburg horribly undermanned while my concentrated the bulk of my forces south toward the remnants of the HRE. That castle had 1 unit of longbows, 1 levy spearman, 1 family member, and 2 dismounted feudal knights. Being such as tasting target for Denmarked, I was besieged a couple of times by half-stacks comprising mostly of war clerics, crossbowmen, and town militia (maybe with some artillery thrown in).
1 placed my longbowmen's stakes right in front of the gate and had a unit of dismounted knights right behind it. In the beginning of battle, I sent my longbows up onto the walls and my other unit of dismounted knights. The AI had a ladder and a tower, so (obviously) the ladder got there first. By the time my knights had dispatched the troops sent on the ladder, I shifted them to the other side of the gate were the tower was just about to hit.

Once the gates broke down the AI usually charges with the unit that sent the ram, followed by a cavalry charge. The entire attack never got past the gate and the area outside was littered with bodies thanks to my longbowmen. I would only take minor losses to my 2 dismounted knights. Those stakes transformed any unit behind it into some sort of invincible phalanx. Really, this shouldn't happen because in campaign battle you can't put spikes on roads... but you can on paved city streets.... Either way that is a strategy that works every time.