Hitler

[Veho Nex]

Adolf Hitler (right) was NOT evil. Heinrich Himmler (left) was the evil one.

The original plan by Adolf Hitler was call ' The Madagascar Plan'. It was originally a plan to deport all Jews.

"The Madagascar Plan was a suggested policy of the Nazi government to forcibly relocate the Jewish population of Europe to the island of Madagascar."

Heinrich Himmler, second in power, decided "Hey? Why not kill them instead?". The concentration camps and extermination camps were created Heinrich Himmler and run under his orders. Adolf Hitler never visited any of these camps, including Auschwitz. However, Heinrich Himmler often visited them. He even took his daughter on tour to see the dying Jews.

We know, both Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Hitler were horrible men, but why is all the blame going to Adolf Hitler? Sure he allowed it... But it's one thing to see pictures, and hear about it. It's another thing to go there and see it for yourself.

Adolf Hitler was just a methamphetamine addict who sat back and allowed Heinrich Himmler to destroy the Jewish population.

I capitalized Heinrich Himmler.

"Extermination camps were two types of facilities that Nazi Germany built during World War II for the systematic killing of millions of people in what has become known as the Holocaust.[1] During World War II, under the orders of HEINRICH HIMMLER, extermination camps were built during a later phase of the program of annihilation."

"Like all German concentration camps, the Auschwitz camps were operated by HEINRICH HIMMLER's SS. The commandants of the camp were the SS-Obersturmbannführers Rudolf Höß (often anglicised to "Hoess") until the summer of 1943, and later Arthur Liebehenschel and Richard Baer."

"Einsatzgruppen (German for "task forces" or "intervention groups") were paramilitary groups formed by HEINRICH HIMMLER and operated by the SS before and during World War II. "

Just read this what do you guys think. Is this propaganda or a true story.

[Ramses II CP]

So what part of a plan to 'merely' deport people based on their ethnicity or religion isn't evil?

What part of 'merely' overseeing a genocidal extermination rather than actively planning it isn't evil?

If the problem is the term evil itself, then simply replace it with contemptibly wrong. Problem solved.

[Watchman]

Pff. Where do you think Himmler got his marching orders from ?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So what part of a plan to 'merely' deport people based on their ethnicity or religion isn't evil?

What part of 'merely' overseeing a genocidal extermination rather than actively planning it isn't evil?

Of course, keeping in mind the common definition of evil in this sense, yes, it was evil. However, the article doesn't deny that Hitler was evil, simply that Himmler should get the same amount or more of the bad rap that Hitler does.

[Ramses II CP]

Of course, keeping in mind the common definition of evil in this sense, yes, it was evil. However, the article doesn't deny that Hitler was evil, simply that Himmler should get the same amount or more of the bad rap that Hitler does.

...err, read that first line up there again.

[Geoffrey S]

What do I think? Revisionist, offensive, and inaccurate tripe.

[CountArach]

What do I think? Revisionist, offensive, and inaccurate tripe.

Revisionism for the sake of Revisionism is not a good thing...

[Subedei]

Both were awefully dangerous freaks, not too much need for discussion about that......

The whole 3rd Reich was built on the leadership claim and orders of Adolf Hitler, b/c with every action/crime a Nazi commited he/she could blame the next higher hierarchical level...all the way up to A.H. They did not call him "Führer" for nothing, you know.

[Watchman]

Himmler was pretty much Adolf's right-hand man and general-purpose troubleshooter for a lot of stuff is all. He was way better at organising stuff than his boss and a fervent believer in the Nazi ideology, so...

Mind, Hitler wasn't always unconditionally thrilled by some of Himmler's odder ideas (say, the occultism), and is known to at least once have told Speer he wished the man wouldn't spend so much time digging holes to remind everyone the Germans had still been living in mud huts when the Greeks and Romans built metropoles...
Well, that was before the Ahnenerbe and the other kooks managed to sell him the crackpot German pinko-ultranationalist version of world history. Damn, but some of that stuff was surreal nonsense...


As an aside, when the Nazis talked about "deportation" of the Untermenschen, nevermind now the vile Jews (whom they regarded pretty much as a sort of living plague), what they actually meant was along the lines of "corraling in a suitably unviable hellhole and letting the conditions and 'natural wastage' do the rest", hard forced labour with insufficient rations (as was done with Russian POWs for example), and suchlike. ...and, since ridding the world of the "Jewish contagion" was a sort of major thing in their crazy racial ideology, in the case this wasn't enough they were envisoning more proactive steps from the start.

[Geoffrey S]

Out of curiosity, where did you find the quoted text?

[TinCow]

If you don't mind mass deportation, suspension of civil and human rights, rigging of elections, confiscation of property, execution of protestors, state-sponsored terrorism, mandatory educational indoctrination of racism, and sterilization of the disabled, Hitler was a lovely fellow. Well, except for the whole war thing.

[DemonArchangel]

What Hitler had was a demonic charisma that made people love him. People hung onto every word that man said because let's face it, Hitler was a great speaker. Adolf Hitler was responsible for making monsters like Himmler believe the crap that came out of his mouth. Thus Hitler is to blame for all the bad things under his regime.

[Veho Nex]

Out of curiosity, where did you find the quoted text?

ehhh /b/?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What Hitler had was a demonic charisma that made people love him. People hung onto every word that man said because let's face it, Hitler was a great speaker. Adolf Hitler was responsible for making monsters like Himmler believe the crap that came out of his mouth. Thus Hitler is to blame for all the bad things under his regime.

That's pretty much the only area I can respect Hitler for. He did terrible things, such as ravaging a continent, killing millions of people, you know the story. I never thought that anyone could be convinced by what he put out - I mean, there were a few decent ideas, but most of it was tripe. Then you watch one of his speeches - wow, he could talk.

EDIT: But on the same note, there are many politicians worth noting who are excellent speakers and don't have an agenda of deporting/exterminating the odd few million here or there.

[Veho Nex]

*cough* Clinton *cough*
"You wouldn't trust him with your daughters, why would you trust him with your guns." - Charlton Heston

[Geoffrey S]

ehhh /b/?

What's unclear about the question?

[Furious Mental]

Nazism, like fascism generally, was an amalgam of a lot of different streams of thought which went back to before WWI, but which the Nazis, and Hitler especially, amalgamated into one. One aspect (actually the most important one probably) of this was that history was a Darwinist struggle between nations, in which Germany was being undermined by interbreeding with Jews and of course by Bolshevism (which was seen as eminently Jewish).

One facet of this was that a nation had to continuously fight and grow and purify itself or it would become decadent and be destroyed. This gelled with a sort of cult of action which the Nazis picked up- thinking about things was futile, it was best to just do them, and since any sort of drop in pace meant weakness, do them faster and on an ever bigger scale.

Generally, the view of fascists was that universal morality (and hence any sort of innate right to life and liberty) was nonsense and that extraordinary persons (or rather, nations led by extraordinary persons) simply "make" morality by imposing their will on others.

When you consider these aspects of Nazi ideology together, I think it is pretty easy to see how the Holocaust came about- the quest for more territory and a purer race continuously accelerated to become grander and grander and more and more violent, totally unconstrained by normal human decency. My own view is that industrialised genocide was not merely an inherently possible consequence of Hitler's ideology but that it was the inevitable consequence, a conclusion which I would consider bolstered by the evidence that genocide started very early in the war, before it was promulgated as an official policy. Genocide was already a fact by the time the "Final Solution" was initiated, and given Hitler's dominance of the regime one can only conclude that he approved of it.

One can also look at the Italian Social Republic, in which the true Italian fascists, no longer having any reason to care about the views of conservative elites (who had just changed sides), concluded the war with an orgy of state terrorism, in essentially the same way as the few other genuinely fascist states in Europe and of course the various movements that joined the Nazis as SS auxiliaries.

[Adrian II]

Jkarinen, I have dabbled in these sort of issues for many years. They are very complicated. I think the author you quote is an amateur, typically overstating some minor facts in order to make a sensationalist and invalid claim.

Instead of attempting some sort of conclusive rebuff, I trust that you can make up your own mind. Let me just point you to the Holocaust-debate that has been raging for decades between intentionalists (who state that Hitler and his cronies had genocidal intentions from the start and managed to impose them on German society) and functionalists (who state that nazi policy was the outcome of bureaucratic processes and pragmatic decisions throughout 1933-1945). The debate touches on Hitler's role and all other issues mentioned.

Clickety

[Fragony]

What do I think? Revisionist, offensive, and inaccurate tripe.

Not so much really, the madagascar thing is real at least.

edit, no not that one. Sebastian Haffner is somewhat of an authority forgot what book though.

[Geoffrey S]

Oh, I don't deny that the Madagascar plan was real at some point - although like other posters in this here topic, I doubt the humane motives somehow implied in the opening quote.

Anyway, my earlier post refers mainly to such comments as 'Adolf Hitler (right) was NOT evil. Heinrich Himmler (left) was the evil one'. Such comments get me riled up without fail, attempting to absolve Hitler of blame for whatever reason. That is why I'm interested in where Jkarinen found it, because a quick search in Google only supplied this topic.

[Fragony]

More responsible would be better, evil is so relative if you do bad things for what you believe to be the greater good it isn't really evil just twisted. But Himmler was the driving force behind the final solution.

[Furious Mental]

That assumes that Hitler conceived of "the greater good" in the same way as the rest of us, which, if I may be so presumptuous, would be the betterment of all mankind by an objective and universal standard. Hitler completely rejected such a concept- humanism and universal values were foreign to him. The only good that mattered was the good of his nation, and by definition this was also the detriment of other nations, because his view of history required his nation to expand continuously and engage in wars for their own sake in order to survive.

[Fragony]

Well he didn't believe in that he believed in the aryan race that was good for him. If I could ever qualify is really evil it would be King Leoplod II, he did it all for himselve. The greatest forgotten crime in history and one heck of a book;

http://www.amazon.com/King-Leopolds-.../dp/0618001905

edit owwwwwwwww wrong link

[Adrian II]

Look brothers, are we going to take any crappy Web article seriously?

For example: the Madagascar plan was Himmler's idea, not Hitler's. Himmler presented it in May 1940 as an alternative, since the 'Bolshewist method of physical annihilation' was still deemed 'ungermanisch' (un-Germanic) in leading nazi circles. The decision to exterminate Jews was almost certainly taken in 1941, and it was almost certainly imposed by Hitler himself. In the Spring of 1941 Himmler told Htiler's personal physician Felix Kersten that the total innihilation of Jewry had been ordered by the leader: "Das ist der eindeutige Befehl des Führers.“

Need I go on?


Forget the Web,
It's full of crap.
Instead go look
For a decent book.
Right on..

Just click on the link I provided, turn to the authors mentioned and take it from there.

[Fragony]

The decision to exterminate Jews was almost certainly taken in 1941, and it was almost certainly imposed by Hitler himself. In the Spring of 1941 Himmler told Htiler's personal physician Felix Kersten that the total innihilation of Jewry had been ordered by the leader: "Das ist der eindeutige Befehl des Führers.“

Read this 3 times.

[Veho Nex]

You know what, screw the politics, All i care about is the battles, way mor interesting anyways

[Watchman]

Huh. Given that how they go, nevermind why they're fought in the first place, is usually largely politics...

[Adrian II]

You know what, screw the politics, All i care about is the battles, way mor interesting anyways

[Geoffrey S]

You know what, screw the politics, All i care about is the battles, way mor interesting anyways

[Husar]

Poltics r 4 the edumacated and teh inlectuuls (spiling?), ppl hu reed buks and so on.

But serially, politics can be pretty boring and sometimes I just want to make them illegal. In the good old times at least the normal soldiers might get a chance to smack the politicians on the battlefield for their political failures.