Historic Battles for EB?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Just keep at it Ed and don't worry about things like this. Actually creating them is where the tite spot is and you've done a great job at it.

[Ibrahim]

i just tried a couple of them, carrhae, the one with the luso and the one between ceasar and pharnakes, they are great! love the info on the battles, very interesting read, and the battles themselves are great, i lost at carrhae and disgraced my poor cataphracts and very interesting to see what units you have used and how many of each, to make up a historical army, good reference for the campaign. my favorite battle was the one between ceasar and pharnakes, sorry can´t remember the name, when those chariots charged right through my galatians i got quite a scare Now i gotta go back and try the other ones, im really excited to try Telamon
thanks for taking your time to make them!

YOU LOST AT CARRHAE? you los at at carrhae? all you need to do is kill Crassus' son-don't tell me you tried breaking through the square? (I won when I killed the son-then killed the father as a bonus-though you don't want to know how...

well good luck at Telamon!!

and them chariots were scary indeed-and the enemy attack was just this big human wave coming-took 20 minutes hard fighting to break them took 26% casualties (miraculously only 1 unit cracked-equites Gallorum-caught too early by asiatikoi hippeis. the other routed the other asiatikoi and hit the enemy in the back at the entrenchments-ending the fight there)
play Kynoskephalai as a roman for real challenge-that was friggin scary, almost lost the battle at one point (thank god for the Elephantes)
Areios is still fun as ever, have replayed Ebhernis (yet to win it anyhow)

[ombudsman]

YOU LOST AT CARRHAE? you los at at carrhae? all you need to do is kill Crassus' son-don't tell me you tried breaking through the square? (I won when I killed the son-then killed the father as a bonus-though you don't want to know how...

well good luck at Telamon!!

yes, ´tis true, i lost at carrhae the bugger ran away and hid in the square. and then i was kind of doing this = my cats being the head and the wall being the romans, until i lost. but i guess ill have to try again. i am itching to try telamon though, just to prove that i can make it

[Strategos Alexandros]

Having only tried 2 battles (the Luso one and Ausculum) I have to say that so far they are great, especially the descriptions and the placing of the troops to start with. Are you still planning to make the series of battles based on the campaigns of Antiochus the great that were previewed? Although the 1.1 ones are more than enough to be going on with!

[Eduorius]

Carrhae is more challenging when using Publius, since it ends if he gets killed.

I am glad people liked Zela, even tough I didnt spend that much time doing the battle.

[abou]

There are several problems with that approach.

First and foremost, the sources aren't brilliantly clear on how (or if) the Italian allies were identically equipped, or to what level of homogeneity there was in arms and armour. If that were the case, it begs the question why there are Italian troops differing from Roman ones in the game at all, or at least why they don't all vanish with the Polybian "reform". I believe the EB team has done it's homework in that regard, thus you don't simply have Roman troops throughout Italy.

You're right with your first comment, but I'm not entirely sure how you're trying to close your argument. Although, considering that they would be organized in the same manner as Roman troops it gives on the impression that they would be equipped similarly. Also, Rome's dominance over the peninsula by the Polybian period probably has a little to do with it too. Hence the reductionism you see.

Secondly, there was never anything like the picture-perfect matching gear we see in the RTW engine, not with most panoplies being heirlooms passed down through the generations and repaired, cannibalised and customised by each wearer. While there isn't a lot that can be done about that within the confines of the engine itself, the variation within units nominally recruited in the same place can only highlight the likelihood of variety between units from different places.

Okay, but again I don't see how this actually furthers what you're trying to get across. It's a limitation we need to deal with and so we compromise by using what would be the most probable equipment.

Thirdly, have you looked at the Italian troop roster? It's not exactly wildly different to the Romans at all. Samnite Allied Medium Spearmen are very similar to Camillian Principes, and differ only in their main weapon to Polybian Hastati. Bruttian Infantry are pretty similar to Polybian Hastati and vary only in their main weapon to Camillian Principes. Samnite Heavy Infantry are a poor man's pedites extraordinarii. Campanian Cavalry were used extensively by Roman armies.

Okay, but not every allied troop would be drawn from just the Samnites or just the Bruttians. There would be allies from the north and the south. Again, limitations and we simply cannot justify giving another unit slot for allied hastati, principes, or triarii.

Lastly on the "numbers" issue, it really wouldn't be hard to reduce the number of hastati, principes and triarii and replace them with Italians. One battle had four each of the two former - easy switch right there.

How we do numbers in battles depends on the battle itself, but if our impression is that the Italians would have fought as Roman units and that they would be drawn from all over Italy, what would be the point of including those very specific Italian tribe units?

[QuintusSertorius]

The point? The beauty of variety and being able to make distinct the legion from the ala. The Italian peoples themselves certainly thought their heritage worthy of note, even when they were recruited, equipped and trained in the Roman manner. Such as Samnite legionaries painting their icons on their shields.

Furthermore, where are the pedites extraordinarii in any of those battle rosters?

[abou]

The point? The beauty of variety and being able to make distinct the legion from the ala. The Italian peoples themselves certainly thought their heritage worthy of note, even when they were recruited, equipped and trained in the Roman manner. Such as Samnite legionaries painting their icons on their shields.

I agree in principle, but that isn't enough justification to include three extra units that are redundant.

Furthermore, where are the pedites extraordinarii in any of those battle rosters?

I haven't looked at the new battles closely. You would have to ask the guys who did the research.

The extraordinarii will be in the version of Magnesia I am working on. We don't know much about how they were deployed in the battle, but considering their march order I'm assuming they would be place at the far ends of the infantry in the first row between the hastati and equites.

[QuintusSertorius]

I agree in principle, but that isn't enough justification to include three extra units that are redundant.

I'll admit you've got me there. While it would be nice in a way to get "Italic hastati" et al, it is pretty redundant to have three extra units in the roster who differ only in having slightly different skins, since there's no evidence they were any better or worse than Romans were.

My own inelegant solution is to continue using the Bruttians as "Italic hastati" (even if the real Bruttians were no longer recruited as such, there's little to separate them from Polybian hastati), then use pedites extraordinarii in place of "Italic principes", and forget about the "Italici triarii" because I never double them up with allied spearmen anyway. Stack is already too big without adding still more units to it.

I haven't looked at the new battles closely. You would have to ask the guys who did the research.

The extraordinarii will be in the version of Magnesia I am working on. We don't know much about how they were deployed in the battle, but considering their march order I'm assuming they would be place at the far ends of the infantry in the first row between the hastati and equites.

Cool, look forward to seeing it.