Quintus Sertorius' Guide to Conduct Becoming of a True Roman (Redux for EB)

[QuintusSertorius]

in an earlier post you mentioned letting your young FM serve as cavalry in the legions. do they actually get any benefit in game for this?

e.g. i have and 17 year old FM with pretty good traits except he is of doubtful courage. will making him charge repeatedly eventually erase this trait?

or is your suggestion just for historical purposes and not game purposes?

ty

Historical purposes, largely. I have occasionally seen trait stuff from secondary commanders activities, but most of those things accrue to the general.

[Monk29]

QuintusSertorius,

Just started playing EB, and I can't believe I missed this MOD until now. Hope there are still some eyes reviewing this thread.

I have been, to the best of my ability, trying to stay true to this guide. I am currently approaching the Marian Reforms (about 6 years out...I think lol).

I was hoping you could depict, as you did with Camillian and Polybian disposition, the Marian reforms formation with your recommended units.

I appreciated the work you put in balancing historical composition between units in the game. However, I think my problem is properly deploying the in-game units vs. historical deployment (my historical "knowledge" is limited to what I could scrounge on the internet). From what I have gathered, Marian era fought in lines, as u have stated (although I interpret that to mean units shoulder to shoulder, 3-4 rows deep). After running some custom battle tests, I am struggling to develop strong lines. This struggle en composes individual unit formation and where to place units based on your recommended composition.

In the previous eras, I maintained the quincunx formation, with my infantry in square formation as per SFraser's "Guard Mode : The Art of Fighting in Formation". This formation during game play has been tough as nails to break. Square formation seems to allow the roman infantry to perform at their best, while stretching to rows of 3-4 (with guard mode enabled), leads to disaster. I want to keep working within your historical framework, while balancing out the "game-isms".

Thanks for any help, and a fantastic guide.

[QuintusSertorius]

CTDs tended to prevent me reaching the Marian reforms, so I was only ever able to test them out in Custom Battles. I deployed them in a quincunx same as the Polybian ones (though in reality that was only one of a number of formations they used) with allied foot on the flanks and the Romans down the middle.

[TheLastDays]

Well, first of all, thanks for the guide and the work and effort you've put into it. I am trying to follow it on certain parts like FMs traits (who's eligible for command, governing etc...)

The only thing I am not following is historical expansion, when playing the game I like to create an alternate history, so I just go with the policy of the Res Publica and take what the AI gives me... I'll see how it goes as in this campaign I haven't gotten to far yet, but for example I of course took southern Italy first, for obvious reasons, then made peace with Pyrrhus and waited... Then I had a rebel stack spawn near Arretium next to the border of Liguria so I attacked it with my consular army, it retreated towards Segesta and I followed and engaged. The battle drew the garrison out and together they outnumbered me quite a bit. I deployed in classical formation and took heavy casualties, mostly the Hastati and allied infantry was slaughtered but even the Principes were decimated a good bit before I could rout them and take them out (which was on the death of their general and I stall had those damn naked fanatics fighting on...) - also my cavalry was slaughtered, including most of my tribunes bodyguard (he survived luckily), my General stayed out of battle for the most part...

So afterwards I took the city since there was no garrison left and razed it for the support for a raiding army and slaughter of good Romans... it's just one example... I have taken Bononia on a similar reason but without razing as it was very different and now I will probably set out for Greece to keep ever expanding Pyrrhus in check. They have taken out a lot of Macedon and the KH so I'll need to restore balance, giving most conquered settlements back to the KH and Macedon but probably keeping the Illyrian coast ;)

So... I do have a question, when deploying in the classical formation I find it hard to "pin" the enemy to just fight my Hastati initially. They just swarm throught the holes, flank and attack my reserve troops... any experience on keeping them from doing that?

[QuintusSertorius]

So... I do have a question, when deploying in the classical formation I find it hard to "pin" the enemy to just fight my Hastati initially. They just swarm throught the holes, flank and attack my reserve troops... any experience on keeping them from doing that?

You want them to swarm into the gaps - they make themselves locally outnumbered and outflanked by doing so. Put your hastati on guard mode and they'll last a lot longer. Though the Camillian troops you start with aren't anywhere near as survivable as the Polybian ones who replace them.

[Klemens]

You want them to swarm into the gaps - they make themselves locally outnumbered and outflanked by doing so. Put your hastati on guard mode and they'll last a lot longer. Though the Camillian troops you start with aren't anywhere near as survivable as the Polybian ones who replace them.

It should be added that, to quote Keppie, The Making of the Roman Empire.

"Battle would be opened by the velites, who attempted to disorganize and unsettle enemy formations with a hail of javelins. Having done this they retired through the gaps in the maniples of the hastati and made their way to the rear. The maniples of the hastati now reformed to close the gaps, either by each maniple extending its frontage, thus giving individuals more room in which to handle their weapons, or, if the maniple was drawn up two centuries deep, the centurio posterior would move his centuria to the left and forward, thus running out and forming up alongside the centuria of the centurio prior in the line itself."

What I usually do is click on all my hastati, drag from the leftmost unit to the rightmost to create a single line. To make sure there's depth in the line I space out my hastati to be cohort length apart, in a square like formation. This is just for role playing purposes as in Rome Total War friendly units can run through even the tightest formation.

Here are screenshots to demonstrate, my army is based off Quintus' guide.



Layout of the legion, noticed that the third rank is refused so if the main attack fails, the triarii will have time to form into a solid line.




The skirmishers disorder the ranks with javelin showers and than retreat.



Solid line formed, the units are put in a defensive position to pin the Epeirote phalanx.



Flanking actions with the legionary, rolling up the line.



Sensing victory, all reserves are thrown in.



Finally the route.

What you can't see from these screenshots is the defeat of my cavalry forces, to prevent disaster my triarii were used as spear men, guarding the flanks of the heavy infantry and routing the Greek horsemen.

[TheLastDays]

Wow thanks for the answers and the screenshots.

Yea, I also try to pull the skirmishers back through the gaps, for RPing, even though they could just run through the lines... on the other hand they do mess up the formation a bit and that sometimes makes problems when the line is on guard mode, so it actually makes some sense to draw them through the gaps...

So, I assume you're usually using your cavalry to screen the flanks? 'Cause the way I understood it, is that if everything went according to plan, the Triarii or even the Principes wouldn't even see battle? Correct me if I'm wrong, please

One more question: Is there a way to save a formation so I don't have to spend all the time in deployment to put them into it and can just make slight adjustments to terrain? Obviously the whole thing goes way smother on flat, empty terrain, it gets complicated with broken up hills and wood...

EDIT:

You want them to swarm into the gaps - they make themselves locally outnumbered and outflanked by doing so. Put your hastati on guard mode and they'll last a lot longer. Though the Camillian troops you start with aren't anywhere near as survivable as the Polybian ones who replace them.

Yeah I know but that will have to wait a bit longer... As long as I don't see any reason to attack the Carthies (i.e. expansion somewhere in Europe), I won't get any Polybians...

[Klemens]

I used my cavalry to aggressively defeat the enemy horsemen but the attack failed on both flanks and my equites routed so I had to use my triarii to hold off the Epeirote horsemen before I could be hammer & anvil'd.

Against a barbarian faction it's plausible for the first line to route the enemy, but against a phalanx you have a few minutes to outflank it with reserves before any cohorts in front of it route. It's also true that you won't have to put principes or triarii into the fight if your own cavalry can flank the phalanx.

To save a formation on the march, you have to make sure it's not too spaced out and uneven but has symmetry, select all your units and hold down alt than right click where you want the formation to go. To see if it's going in the right direction hold down space and it'll highlight where units are going. If your army is uneven the game will make them form into a straight line.

[TheLastDays]

Sorry, if I was unclear, I know about the way to move them in formation, what I meant is, is there a way to save a custom formation, so I can just use it when deploying into battle?

[Klemens]

There's no way to save a formation unless you alter the script, Jirisys' mod pack has a roman manipular formation but it's still not the same as the one I used.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ack-for-EB-1.2

[TheLastDays]

Ok thanks... one more question, for now, to QS... What are you doing with all these client rulers after their cities change gov type? Do you just put them in the countryside and let them die of old age?

[Lysimachos]

Ok thanks... one more question, for now, to QS... What are you doing with all these client rulers after their cities change gov type? Do you just put them in the countryside and let them die of old age?

Personally, I wait with the gouvernment change until the client ruler dies. It has the practical advantage that you don't have to find a use for him and from a roleplaying perspective the death of the ruler provides a reasonable cause for structural changes opposed to just force him out of office.

[vollorix]

Once the client ruler becomes corrupt, or starts liking strangers ( kind of under suspicion trait of the greeks - proxenos ), or has developed some nasty traits - in short, everything that stands against the ideal phylosiphy of your "state", you will get the reason to remove him from his position; "invite" him to your capital ( boarding a ship specifically sent for this purpose - an "honor" ^^ ) and let some pirates intercept it ;) There are plenty of possibilities to find an apropriate reason for changes if you want to roleplay this.

[SimonB1er]

How do i recruit allied troops for the war with Epirus at the start of the campaign? I don't have enough money to hire all those mercenaries... What do guys do??
Thanks

[The_Blacksmith]

How do i recruit allied troops for the war with Epirus at the start of the campaign? I don't have enough money to hire all those mercenaries... What do guys do??
Thanks

Well, the only way to get Samnites and Butanians are mercs OR waiting for Factional MIC to reach lvl 4... and that takes time... OR you can invade Lingua and make a lvl 4 gov and upgrade local MIC to lvl 3...

[TheLastDays]

Well in the beginning I didn't have allied heavy infantry... I basically recruited Samnite Medium Spearmen from Capua, I think the factional MIC for that is already there or it's just one update. Then I either hired Bruttian or Lucanian merc infantry (they're both not too expensive) - later on I'd use the Bruttian or Lucanian infantry (Bruttian then recruitable from Rhegion, Lucanian still merc) as light infantry. Samnite Heavies as allied heavy infantry.

[SimonB1er]

On the first few turns, how do you organize your armies?

[econ21]

On the first few turns, how do you organize your armies?

I love this guide but early on, I find there is not enough money to hire a lot of men and create the kind of full stack Consular army that is sketched out. But on VH/M you don't need such full stacks very early on. One of the two half stacks you start with is sufficient to take Taras and is nicely balanced, quite close to the historical composition of a legion. I add a young FM as the Tribune, then - when funds allow - beef up the stacks with an extra hastati, principes and triarii to get the right proportion for a legion. One half stack heads north (Bononia or whatever it is called); one south (Rhegion). If I had the money, I would flesh them out with allies, but right now I don't have the money or see the need. I can rationalise it along the EB team's lines that Roman Italian allies would fight in the Roman manner (and thus be represented by your Roman units).

I will move to full stacks, about half allied, when I leave Italy and start facing draining encounters with multiple AI stacks.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

As Roma I actually never recruit Bruttians or Lucanians. In history they fought against Rome so I usually roleplay that they can not be trusted and thus I never rcruit them. Instead I use Samnites whose area of recruitment is a bit closer to my 3 main recruitment centers(Rome, Capua, Arretium). Also, Samnites look a lot cooler than Lucanians or Bruttians.

[The_Blacksmith]

As Roma I actually never recruit Bruttians or Lucanians. In history they fought against Rome so I usually roleplay that they can not be trusted and thus I never rcruit them. Instead I use Samnites whose area of recruitment is a bit closer to my 3 main recruitment centers(Rome, Capua, Arretium). Also, Samnites look a lot cooler than Lucanians or Bruttians.

The Samnites fought abainst the romans too... i think its 3 or 4 wars?

any ways, i like the bruttians :D

[Lysimachos]

The Samnites fought abainst the romans too... i think its 3 or 4 wars?

any ways, i like the bruttians :D

Almost everyone fought the romans at one point or another :-)

[Randal]

I was hoping you could depict, as you did with Camillian and Polybian disposition, the Marian reforms formation with your recommended units.

Bit late to the party, but I did manage to reach the Marian reforms a decade or so ago in my game. I'm nowhere near as thorough as QS is, but here's how I've been using the new troops:

First of all, my Marian armies are less standarised and more varied than my Polybian forces were.

Second of all, as far as I know Marian armies continued to deploy in solid blocks of infantry. Narrow lines may or may not have been used at some point, but there's plenty of documentary evidence either way. For example at Pharsalus Caesar deployed his legions in a shallow formation to prevent outflanking by Pompey's superior numbers, while Pompey deployed his inexperienced troops in a very deep formation to stiffen their resolve.

The core "building block" of my armies is a legion, now represented by a First Cohort and two Reformed Cohorts. This roughly corresponds to the old legion. The cohorts' larger unit size makes up for the lack of velites so there's roughly the same number of men in the old legion as in the new. One or even both ordinary cohorts can be replaced by Evocata to represent veteran forces, though I rarely do this. My reasons are shallow: legions look much cooler if they're all dressed in red.

My Marian armies consist of between 2 and 4 of these legions, depending on the circumstances, available forces and the theatre of war.
The 4 legion armies are almost purely Roman, just adding auxiliary cavalry and skirmishers from wherever they're available. This is similar to the forces Caesar (some of the time) fielded in Gaul: Roman infantry with Gallic, Numidian, German and Spanish cavalry and Germanic skirmishers in support.
A 3 legion army would also include some allied heavy infantry, generally (but not always) higher-end to represent troops outfitted with Roman equipment just like the Marian cavalry auxilia. (Neitos, Galatikoi Kuarothoroi) Many of my armies in my Syrian campaign were composed like this, and it fits most sources that mention the Romans employing various allied troops without going into too much detail about their role and composition.
A 2 legion army makes up about half of a composite allied force and generally has an allied general leading a consistent army of his native troops. For example, in the recent war between Pergamon (Roman ally, type 4 government) and Phrygia (Actually the remnants of the Seleucid empire, but I preferred to roleplay it as just another small kingdom in Asia minor at this stage) I fielded a Greek-style army of hoplites, peltasts, hippeis, Cretan archers and a Greek general supported by 2 legions and a Roman praetor.

Any Roman force is led by a Roman general and can be supported by a few light scorpiones and antesigani. Unfortunately I haven't really worked out a way to use the latter very effectively, and I can't find any sources stating how they were used historically either. I've had minor success using them like Triarii, or just in the first battle-line possibly supporting allies, but since I can't find a historical use for them I'm now phasing them out slowly.

As for tactics, they're flexible. A Marian legionary army can deploy in 2, 3 or 4 battle-lines, usually still in chequerboard formation. An independent allied army would be formed up on one side of the battlefield, with skirmishers and cavalry spread out more evenly.

If there is allied heavy infantry incorporated I sometimes use a tactic similar to Agricola in Scotland. (And, funnily enough, like Agricola in the post just above mine. Perhaps not a coincidence) The allied infantry gets deployed as a solid, thin first line with archers behind and skirmishers in front, with the legions in a double chequered line behind those. Cavalry on the flanks or behind the last line as usual. (Flanks is historical but will cause the AI to behave unhistorically) I'm not sure if this formation was already used in the late republic, but it's proven very effective as the allies take the brunt of the impact and hold the enemy up and the Romans can then carefully reinforce them and counter-attack, breaking the enemy. Allied troops are sometimes better at forming a thin line like that than Romans are, and if they get bled in the process... well, they're not Romans.

If no allied heavy infantry is available, legionary cohorts can also be drawn up as a first line, but this is risky. Screening them with skirmishers is important to stop cavalry, in particular heavy Greek or Eastern cavalry from wreaking havoc on the lines. The Ptolemaic army with 4 Hetairoi bodyguard units showed me how bad that can be...

Anyway, I hope that's of some help, and if any of you guys know ways to make my tactics more historical I'd love to hear them.

[econ21]

Any Roman force is led by a Roman general and can be supported by a few light scorpiones and antesigani. Unfortunately I haven't really worked out a way to use the latter very effectively, and I can't find any sources stating how they were used historically either. I've had minor success using them like Triarii, or just in the first battle-line possibly supporting allies, but since I can't find a historical use for them I'm now phasing them out slowly.

I have not got to the Marian reforms, but reading EB material, one idea I picked up was using the antesigani on the flanks, behind the cavalry, to provide support for them. Throughout history, interspersing infantry with cavalry has often given an edge. The Romans, if played with historical army composition, may be relatively inferior in cavalry and so it could be particularly useful for them. I believe that at Pharsallus, Caesar deployed some veteran infantry behind the cavalry on his right flank to help defeat Pompey's horse, which outnumbered his.

[Randal]

That's a good idea and does make a kind of sense, but I don't recall reading anything about it being done.

At Pharsalus, Caesar formed a fourth line behind his cavalry with cohorts drawn from his third line, leaving that at half strength. They were regular line-infantry, not special veteran forces. They may have been equipped with the hasta, though I've read contradicting reports.

In other battles I've read that Caesar's German auxiliary cavalry was supported by light infantry this way, but that'd refer to skirmishers which the antesigani are not. Also, being auxiliary forces they were supported by their own native light foot units, not by Romans. It seems a bit strange for the Romans to send their elite legionaries among their allied horse...

As for Roman cavalry inferiority, that varied... sometimes they had quite a strong cavalry contingent.

A problem with this tactic more related to EB and the RTW engine is that if you put cavalry on your flanks as was done historically, the enemy send half their infantry battle-line (namely spearmen) haring off to try and chase down your cavalry. Not historical, and it actually weakens their chances as they now have insufficient infantry left to hold their centre.

For this reason I often deploy my cavalry behind my lines and only send them to engage the enemy horsemen as they try to strike my flanks. A bit less historical looking at the start of the battle, but far more logical results. It also works pretty well. In a recent battle my 3 squadrons of Thrakian Auxiliary cavalry did me particularly proud by destroying three squadrons of Carthaginian Sacred Band bodyguard cavalry. Roman cavalry tends to be pretty good in an anti-cavalry role.

Still, I'll give this a try, see what results I get.

[Rhilanth]

I've been trying this guide and enjoy it immensely. There is just one thing I'm not sure how to do. I'm about to start the Second Punic War, and I want to spawn Hannibal's army. I'm just not sure how to do that, or spawning any armies for that matter. Could someone please provide a link or otherwise easy to follow step by step process on how to do that? Also, if someone has the time or wants to help, how should Hannibal's army be composed?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The easiest way is to pick a Carthaginian FM and use create_unit command to spawn units into his army. Then move him to Italy.

[Rhilanth]

Ok, that sounds good, but umm.... how do I do that exactly? How do I use the "create_unit" and move command? Do I need coordinates? How do I get them? Thanks for the help I appreciate it!

[Ibn-Khaldun]

1. Check the export_descr_unit.txt file for the unit ID's like these: iberian skirmisher cavalry equites caetratii, carthaginian infantry aanatim leebim etc.

2. Pick a general who you want to become the next "Hannibal". Preferably, he has a uniqe name because otherwise there will be name conflict with another FM with the same name.

3. Now just type this: create_unit "Your FM's name" "carthaginian infantry aanatim leebim" 1 1 1 1
The first number after units ID is the number of units you want to create. Maximum is 5.
The next one is experience. Maximum is 9.
The last two are armour and weapon upgrades.

4. To move your FM to the right place first put a cursor on the tile where you want to move him.

5. Open console and type: show_cursorstat
This gives the coordinates.

6. To move your character type this: move_character "Your FM's name" 12 34
Numbers are the coordinates you got.

If all works well then you just created a new Hannibal!

Hope this helps!

[Rhilanth]

Great, thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for! Ok, I'll go try this out sometime in the near future when I get some extra time.

[Vlixes]

This guide should be sticky.