Volga Kiptchacks denied NATO membership....

[hellenes]

The Vardarska Bulgars where kept out of NATO by the Makedonian Premier Minister of Hellas....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7326017.stm
And rightfully so....

[Vladimir]

Their cavalry isn't that great anyway. I prefer the Cumans.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Rightfully so?!

This is NATO, not the Greek's private tea club. You don't get to exclude people because you had a little prissy fit with them, especially when your contribution to NATO is the size that Greece's is!

Sheesh.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's not NATO but OTAN! Hence, I demand we obstruct future OTAN summits by veto'ing the Former Turkish Colony of Greece. I mean, surely the OTAN expansion and the Afghanistan mission are mere trivialities compared to the righteous and rational sensitivities of prime member states.

[Furious Mental]

Obviously Macedonia must change its name. That is the only way to ensure that it will not invade a province of its neighbour's. Joining a collective security arrangement is obviously totally insufficient demonstrate its peaceful intentions.

Greek foreign policy = fail

[Conradus]

What is the problem anyway? A province in Greece is also called Macedonia? Why should the Greeks meddle in the affairs of another nation?
Is there any rule against a province and a country that bear the same name?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Burn Greece to the Gound...

troll

[Vladimir]

Where's Rome when you need them?

What have they ever done for us?

[Viking]

What is the problem anyway? A province in Greece is also called Macedonia? Why should the Greeks meddle in the affairs of another nation?
Is there any rule against a province and a country that bear the same name?

Let's have a war already

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_...ambiguation%29

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

We want the Macedonians in NATO why? They have what to contribute, exactly?

[Vladimir]

We want the Macedonians in NATO why? They have what to contribute, exactly?

Bodies. Bloody good infantry. They have this young upstart prince who's good with the cavalry and shows a lot of promise.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well calling the Greek Nazi's is harsh, considering. As to the name of the FYRM isn't historical Macedonia. It covers less than a tenth of Philip's Balkan Empire, end of. All this "we own Alexander" stuff is nonsense from both sides but to suggest that he was born anywhere other than Pella in modern Greece is absurd.

It's a stupid name for a Slav country to choose because it doesn't have anything to do with Slavs.

[Conradus]

Point being? Belgium has very little in common with the Belgae Caesar wrote about. Hellas/Greece is nothing like ancient Hellas.
The claiming to be descendents of Alexander is utter rubbish of course, but naming your country Macedon hardly seems a major issue.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Bodies. Bloody good infantry.

Yes, wonderful, great. However, NATO's already pretty big, with the USA, Britain, Germany, and France having at least decent armed forces. Then there's Spain, Poland, Italy, Turkey. I think all of these countries can stand to contribute some more forces, with, perhaps, the exceptions of American and Britain. Macedonia? Honestly, they're peanuts.

[Vladimir]

Yes, wonderful, great. However, NATO's already pretty big, with the USA, Britain, Germany, and France having at least decent armed forces. Then there's Spain, Poland, Italy, Turkey. I think all of these countries can stand to contribute some more forces, with, perhaps, the exceptions of American and Britain. Macedonia? Honestly, they're peanuts.

But they want something from us which gives us the initiative.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Point being? Belgium has very little in common with the Belgae Caesar wrote about. Hellas/Greece is nothing like ancient Hellas.
The claiming to be descendents of Alexander is utter rubbish of course, but naming your country Macedon hardly seems a major issue.

Point being that Ancient Makedon occupies modern Makedonia in Greece. Albanian and Slavic Macedonian claims to ownership of the world's fastest conquerer are complete tripe. Why anyone would really want to be associated with the little psycho though I'll never know.

[Duke Malcolm]

Perhaps Equatorial Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Papua New Guinea and Guinea will have an all-out brawl.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Perhaps Equatorial Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Papua New Guinea and Guinea will have an all-out brawl.

Considering only two of them share a border, and, as far as I can see, all have minimal or non-existant naval forces, it should be a good show.

[LittleGrizzly]

I read all the reply's before the article so i was thinking this was just over the name, which is just stupid.

Seems to be mainly about some terroritorial claims which the PM or president supported by laying a wreath next to a map of, and some nazi insults which are water off a ducks back as far as im concerned. Seen as macedonia aren't going to be able to take terroritory off greece i don't really see what stopping macedonia joining nato actually achieves for greece ?

revenge for the nazi comments ? show them not to mess with the greek flag again ?

maybe the topic starter could explain what is achieved through the use of the veto, the only thing i understood is the Greek pm has to do it to please the electorate, im assuming its nationalism thats guiding this....

[Conradus]

Point being that Ancient Makedon occupies modern Makedonia in Greece. Albanian and Slavic Macedonian claims to ownership of the world's fastest conquerer are complete tripe.

I second your second sentence, but wouldn't the fastes conquerors be the Mongols?
And at least part of Philips kingdom strechted into the present Macedon.
Anyhow, to me it's all much ado about nothing

[Adrian II]

Both countries should not be members of Nato or the EU on account of their internal repression and corruption. In addition there is Greece's constant treachery. It broke with Nato in 1999 over Kosovo, supported Milosevic and tried to sabotage the sanctions against Serbia while the troops of other members, including Dutch pilots, were risking their lives over Kosovo. Why should we ever protect Greece from foreign agression? Totally useless. Kick 'em out of Nato altogether.

[Geoffrey S]

Seems to be mainly about some terroritorial claims which the PM or president supported by laying a wreath next to a map of, and some nazi insults which are water off a ducks back as far as im concerned. Seen as macedonia aren't going to be able to take terroritory off greece i don't really see what stopping macedonia joining nato actually achieves for greece ?

I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the Greek government is indeed worried that having FYROM joining NATO would give them that bit more legitimacy, that bit more leverage to actually make serious work of their territorial claims. And justifiably so - if it wants to be viewed as a serious nation state it should bloody well start behaving like one in international circles.

But these sort of problems do seem to just happen to dog Greek governments... Cyprus, anyone? Just goes to show how badly the allies screwed up the former Ottoman possessions after the Great War, on a similar scale to Iraq.

Edit: Adrian II, I'd be interested in any literature on their history of Greece and NATO, particularly the issues mentioned. Articles I can find in due course, but are there any books (at least touching) on the subject to start from?

[Husar]

Both countries should not be members of Nato or the EU on account of their internal repression and corruption. In addition there is Greece's constant treachery. It broke with Nato in 1999 over Kosovo, supported Milosevic and tried to sabotage the sanctions against Serbia while the troops of other members, including Dutch pilots, were risking their lives over Kosovo. Why should we ever protect Greece from foreign agression? Totally useless. Kick 'em out of Nato altogether.

Hmm, never heard about that before, are you a reliable source or should I look for a range of reliable primary sources on the matter?
If that's true, they should indeed be kicked out.

[Adrian II]

Hmm, never heard about that before, are you a reliable source or should I look for a range of reliable primary sources on the matter?
If that's true, they should indeed be kicked out.

Geoffrey and Husar, try Michas.

EDIT
I almost forgot, the Dutch Srebrenica Report contains lots of information as well, particularly part III on Intelligence. Soon after the start of the conflict in Yugoslavia, Nato stopped sharing intelligence with the Greeks because they leaked it to Belgrade and to the Bosnian Serbs. Greek arms merchants openly provided the Bosnina Serbs with weapons and ammunition through the port of Bar. The Tribunal in The Hague established that Milosevic had 250 accounts with Greek banks, despite countless Greek denials. The Greek Orthodox Church played its own part, sending priests to morally support the Bosnian Serb troops, giving Karadzic a hero's welcome in Athens in 1993 and openly supporting the recruitment of Greek volunteers to fight with the Serbs. When they attacked Srebrenica in 1995, Greek volunteers were fighting alongside the Serbs. The embattled Dutch troops saw them raise the Greek flag over the enclave after it fell. Messages intercepted by Nato show they did so at Generla Mladic's request 'to honour the Greek boys'. These volunteers later returned safely to Greece. Only under international pressure did Athens start a token prosecution of some of them.

For the record, I didn't agree with the bombing of Kosovo either. But providing succour and even military support to the enemy of your allies is not cricket.

[Geoffrey S]

Looks fascinating. Book is now on its way out of the university library. In the provided link, this quote in particular stood out when related to the current subject:

Another important contribution of the book is the account of the sustained efforts throughout the 1990s by Greek diplomacy to destabilize or at least to prevent the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia at all, or, later on, under its constitutional name. Afraid -correctly- that such a development would only make inevitable the acknowledgment that a Macedonian minority exists in Greece -which it does, but that is Greek society's major taboo-, these efforts included even exchange of views with Milosevic to "swallow up" Macedonia, perhaps within the context of a Greek-Serb Confederation.

Far more than meets the eye, puts things in a somewhat different light than the usual presentations. Thanks!

[CountArach]

Bodies. Bloody good infantry. They have this young upstart prince who's good with the cavalry and shows a lot of promise.

A Prince of Shepherds? I don't see him going anywhere...

[Fragony]

Are we really going to be squeemish about volunteers taking a side in a conflict? We should have let it rot in the first place.

[Adrian II]

Far more than meets the eye, puts things in a somewhat different light than the usual presentations. Thanks!

It shows how the Nato issue is intimately connected to Greece's refusal to recognize its own large Macedonian minority - or any other minority, for that matter, given the rampant ethnic chauvinism of successive governments and the Orthodox Church (another religion of peace, no doubt).

The result is often ricidulous. In 2001, a man was convicted to 15 months in prison for promoting Vlach, a minority language. Mr Sotiris Bletsas was accused of disseminating "false information" about a European minority language. His only crime was to refer to the existence of the Vlach language in information material produced by Brussels, and financed by the Commission. In other words, he was convicted for using the freedom of expression that is guaranteed by most modern democraties as well as by the EU of which Greece is, sadly, a member state.

[The Wizard]

Rightfully so?!

This is NATO, not the Greek's private tea club. You don't get to exclude people because you had a little prissy fit with them, especially when your contribution to NATO is the size that Greece's is!

Sheesh
CR

Totally seconded. Keep your Balkan ethnodrama where it belongs, thanks.

[hellenes]

It shows how the Nato issue is intimately connected to Greece's refusal to recognize its own large Macedonian minority - or any other minority, for that matter, given the rampant ethnic chauvinism of successive governments and the Orthodox Church (another religion of peace, no doubt).

The result is often ricidulous. In 2001, a man was convicted to 15 months in prison for promoting Vlach, a minority language. Mr Sotiris Bletsas was accused of disseminating "false information" about a European minority language. His only crime was to refer to the existence of the Vlach language in information material produced by Brussels, and financed by the Commission. In other words, he was convicted for using the freedom of expression that is guaranteed by most modern democraties as well as by the EU of which Greece is, sadly, a member state.

What "Matsedonian"? Some Volga Kypchaks that came in 7th cent AD? So should the Volgan Administrative Area in Russia around Volgograd be renamed "Matsedonia"? Oh and if some of the Kyptchaks are trying to plagiarise a history while lacking one of their own what should we do? Bend over? As for that finished agent of Mr Soros "Bletsas" one should first ask who were Averof Zappas and other Vlachs that contributed hugely in the modern Hellenic state....would they do this if they didnt consider themselves Greek? Ignorance is a bliss surely...