Quote Originally Posted by Quirinus
I disagree. The point of avoiding farms is not 'just' to prevent mass runaway squalor later in the game-- proper management of pop. growth buildings mean that you can have 0% (or +0.5%) pop. growth in your core cities later in the game when cities start to get truly gigantic. That's generally much harder to do with farms, as they can't be destroyed.

True, cities like Carthage or Patavium or Alexandria almost always have runaway squalor problems anyway, but for 'normal' cities such as, say, Sparta or Antioch or Kydonia, it is possible to level off after 24000 pop. with proper management.

Farming is important to income, true, but trade also makes up a large chunk of it, or it should.

Building farms to avoid the 'Bad Farmer' trait isn't sensible, IMO. There is only one line of farm improvements. Once you're done with building them, all those turns building academies or military barracks or ports still gives a chance of getting that trait. You only avoid getting that trait for the duration of building the farm improvements, which is, what, eight turns at most?
Well, Q, I'm not trying to be contrary. I can't say as I'm understanding everything you're saying here. You're undoubtedly an experienced player who has a game style that fits well for you. I do think that there has been a common understanding among RTW players that farms were to be avoided because they produced squalor from excessive population growth. I know I got that perception myself from reading some of the old player guides in this forum.

I can say, I speak from experience, AKA, that I have literally starved the faction I was playing of income because, though I had markets aplenty and ports, I was avoiding farms superstitiously because I thought it would give me out-of-control squalor issues. And my income shortage was not because I had over-recruited soldiers. I am very aware of the trade income sources & benefits - from trader/markets/ports/etc., not to mention those temple series that support trade profits like Milqart, Mercury, etc. If you doubt my point, try monitoring the income/trade screen of some of your key cities and see what they are making in terms of farm profits. Or check your faction's financial summary screen for turn by turn income totals. I think you'll be surprised. It has simply been my perception that many RTW players underestimate the income contribution of farms.

I don't build farms simply to avoid the 'bad farmer' trait. I'm simply saying that if your faction member has the bad farmer trait, or worse, it will cut into your profits. You can often avoid that by building farms at the earliest opportunity. I can't speak to whether or not it's possible to get bad farmer traits when there are no farms available for construction in your governor's city. That may be. The game is quirky at times, and that may indeed be one of the quirks.

Naturally, if you have of necessity a different building priority for your city other than farms, say, because of the need for some military building or temple, then you will certainly want to build those higher priority items first. And that may mean tolerating having your faction member develop a bad trait.

You said above that "The point of avoiding farms is not 'just' to prevent mass runaway squalor later in the game--" If you're not worried about squalor, why are you not building farms? But for squalor, the size of your city after it passes 24,000 is irrelevant. It's squalor that impacts your public order.

I don't doubt that you can probably manage some cities into a no growth or slow growth pace. But there are trade-offs in doing that too. But again, why would you do that if you're not worried about squalor?

I will say it is certainly possible to acquire compensating traits or retinue members for your governor that may mitigate somewhat his bad farmer traits if he does acquire them. But, some of those traits or retinue members can have other offsetting drawbacks as well, say, to public order. That's the way the game 'bounces.'

Little things can add up over the length of the game. If you're careless, as I used to be, about what traits your governor acquires by your choice of building priorities, there are consequences. And they can add up. The choice, of course, is the player's.

As for me, I used to avoid building farms. I don't anymore.

Best wishes and 'good hunting', Guyus