Greek names for stuff (Q?)

[chairman]

Thanks Keravnos!

I didn't actually mean foriegners with the perioikoi, but I couldn't remember what their status actually was. If I use perioikoi (as a second class spartan unit), would the correct name be "Perioikoi Hoplitai"?

On the latin slingers, IIRC, accensi were baggage handlers or some-such supernumerary group who were armed with slings for the sake of the game, while funditores means ~ "sling-armed soldier".

Chairman

[russia almighty]

I don't think the peri's should be second rate in your game or mod though. Having Spartan drill instructors would probably make you somewhat hardcore.

[chairman]

@Russia: second-rate Spartan is still quite relative though, compared to something like other states' militia hoplites . Besides, the perioikoi weren't held to nearly as high standards as the Spartan homoioi "equals", so 'second-rate' is not too far off.

OK, so more name questions (greek):

In units like Thessalian cavalry, does the 'ethnic' or 'type' descriptor come first? Example, is it Thessalike Xystophoroi or Xystophoroi Thessalike?

In my game I want peltasts to be more like the 5th century style rather than the armored 3rd century style. For the heavier version, should I call them Thorakitai Peltastai?

Also does "Hoplitai Haploi" mean militia hoplites or is it something else? And what exactly does "pantadapoi" mean?

For Latin:

Clipeata means 'armed with hoplite shield' but would that mean that say Samnitici Clipeata is Samnite Hoplites?

And what is the latin for Latin as in the Latin tribes allied to Rome?

Thanks!

Chairman

[keravnos]

@Russia: second-rate Spartan is still quite relative though, compared to something like other states' militia hoplites . Besides, the perioikoi weren't held to nearly as high standards as the Spartan homoioi "equals", so 'second-rate' is not too far off.

OK, so more name questions (greek):

In units like Thessalian cavalry, does the 'ethnic' or 'type' descriptor come first? Example, is it Thessalike Xystophoroi or Xystophoroi Thessalike?

In my game I want peltasts to be more like the 5th century style rather than the armored 3rd century style. For the heavier version, should I call them Thorakitai Peltastai?

Also does "Hoplitai Haploi" mean militia hoplites or is it something else? And what exactly does "pantadapoi" mean?

For Latin:

Clipeata means 'armed with hoplite shield' but would that mean that say Samnitici Clipeata is Samnite Hoplites?

And what is the latin for Latin as in the Latin tribes allied to Rome?

Thanks!

Chairman

So far as whichever gets first, it makes no difference as both were used. As a rule of thumb, "Ethnic" goes first, or rather "regional", as in "Thessalikoi hippeis"

Thessalikoi=Plural male
Thessalike=Singular female, but could also be used in "Thessalike ile" (=thessalian [cavalry] squadron) if such a unit is desired.

I would use "Thessalikoi xystophoroi", even if "Xystophoroi Thessalikoi" is fine. It depends really where you would want the emphasis placed. On the unit or where it is from.

Now, so far as peltasts is concerned, hmm, "Peltastai thorakitai" defeats the purpose of them, I think... however I can see no alternative.
Peltastai by EB time had been mostly eclipsed by Thureophoroi, and then Celtic/Romani influence turned those into "Thorakitai".
I would rather go for "Peltastai Epilektoi" or "chosen peltasts" as the best among the Peltasts would basically buy the means to arm themselves in battle. But that is me.

"Hoplitai haploi" means "plain hoplites" or "Simple hoplites", even "levy hoplites" and it signifies the big majority of people who couldn't afford neither a shield, nor a helmet and had one provided for them by the state. This would signify the bigh majority of the "Demos" in urbanized areas such as Athens, or Sparta.

In fact if there was to be a "categorization" of sorts of hoplites, in my opinion it would go something like this...

1. Hoplitai Epilektoi (Chosen hoplites). I would like to refer you to the following thread where they and their historical appearances are discussed in length...
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...29#post2838929
(Those would be the city states' finest- basically the aristocracy, able to afford a full bronze muscle cuirass and a 10 mm bronze coated aspis). They were small in number and a force which was always on standby, rather than conscripted or levied into action like the two following categories. (Only the finest of helmets for those, aka (phrygian, without facemask probably, rich attic, or thracian or thracoattic, with engraved cheekguards etc)

2. Hoplites (Linothorax cuirass, 5 mm bronze coated aspis shield). These would mean the "medium" hoplites who would be the sons of middle class citizens, aka merchants, farmers, with good armament mostly and elaborate helmets (Attic, Thracian, even the odd Corinthian from grandpa who fought in Salamis and won't let anybody forget . Later on the Italo-Corinthian/Pseudo-Corinthian would come into effect, but more so in S. Italy/Sicily, whereas in mainland Ascalon/Sidon type helmets would prevail)

3. Hoplites haploi (Plain wooden aspis shield sometimes without even bronze coating). Those would be the large majority of the city dwellers in the ancient times. Living in bad conditions, 2nd or 3rd sons, with not much to go on with, and as Hammond writes in "Phillip of Macedon"..."In any slave-owning society every citizen without a capital of sorts find himself in direct opposition to the slave-labor which works without payment". As such what Aristophanes (famous comedian) writes in 393 BCE. "Let's send a fleet! The poor vote YES!, while the "moneyed" [meaning the well off,store owners, artisans, aka middle class] and farmers NO!". The poor always hoped for loot or even a "klerouchy" meaning the killing off of original people and the creation of an Athenian colony in there. According to Isokrates, they were most pleased with the Rhetors who would ask for war than those who wanted peace. In fact in 355 when Athens tried to mobilize its allies for war, the real reason was its poor citizens who had reached a "boiling point" so far as their living conditions were concerned. Being poor in ancient greek world was just about the worst fate, with the absolute worst being a slave in the mines. A house-slave would be sure to have something to eat, for a poor freeman this wasn't guaranteed. It was that reason why as Aristoteles wrote "The Demos tried to alleviate some of that pressure on the poor with altruism payments, but those never managed to raise the living standard of those poor beyond that of a (minimum wage) worker". Their greatest chance was a succesful war. In that they would serve either as rowers, or as "hoplitai haploi" with all the necessary equipment provided for them by the state. In fact Hammond considers that "Theorikon Tameion" (=Theorikon fund, in name a way to supplement the ticket for poorer people to watch the theatrical plays of greats as Euripides, Sophokles and others) was established in 354 BCE in Athens as a way to insure a "ready to be conscripted" force for Poor Athenians to go to war. Those who would sign up for free tickets would be called up for service. Their loss whould help stabilise the state, while their off chance of winning would create a "Kleruchy". This meant that the Aegean island which would have that Kleruchy installed on (as was the case in 90% of the time) would stay Athenian. (Look up the history of Samos Island for more details)

Hoplitai Haploi mean "plain", "simple", "unadorned" hoplites. The hoplitai haploi would have a Konos or pilos helmet, wear a simple chiton or exomis, or even a loincloth, and their equipment was as good as the cheapest weapon supplier that won the contract. A knife would have to do where the richer hoplites would have a xiphos or kopis, and having a knife to use wouldn't be sure. Again, it depended on what the state was willing to pay for armament. The bronze coating on their shields would be the thinnest possible, and about half of them wouldn't have any to begin with.

-> "Misthophoroi" hoplites would be the n.2. Xenophon mentions that all the hoplites who went to fight did have a cuirass, most linothorax so they wouldn't qualify for "hoplites haploi".

"Pantodapoi" means " Those who come (originate) From ALL over". To be distinguished from "Allodapoi" which means "Those who come (originate) from ELSEWHERE".

I hope that was helpful. When you do have some more news for your game, do let us know.

[Jolt]

Funditores would be the correct term for slingers in latin, as the "sling" was called "funda" or something to that effect, since most Latin languages use that word or something similar to refer to the sling.

[chairman]

Keravnos: I knew some of that stuff already, but you organized it and added so much to it ... that is awesome! My thanks to you for that great information! I'm also so pleased that you take interest in my game idea.

About the game, it's something my brother and I have been concepting since the MTW days. It's hopefully going to be a historically accurate game similar to TW encompassing the whole world throughout the period of written human history. So we've been working on it for some time now, with me mostly doing lots of research on militaries, politics and backgrounds of the ~200 playable factions (originally was going to be just 100 factions). We eventually hope to sell the idea to a game company (like CA or something). I hope you guys don't mind that I draw on EB in developing this concept. It's mainly a recognition of the incredible accomplishment, both scholarly and organizationally, that EB is.

On grades of hoplites, I have a similar but more detailed list to yours. From top to bottom:

Epilektoi Hoplitai
Thorakitai Hoplitai
Hoplitai
Iphikratous Hoplitai
Ekdromoi Hoplitai
(don't have levy unit yet but haploi sounds good, especially after reading your post)

Other related units include:
Spartiatai Hoplitai
Spartiatai Hippeis Hoplitai
Perioikoi Hoplitai
Heiros Lochos Thebaion
-and two marine hoplite units
Epibatai Hoplitai
Iphikratous Epibatai Hoplitai

All of these units are in the classical hoplite style (except for the ekdromoi), but the Iphikratids might use a unique formation.

There will also be plenty of regional hoplites in Italy to represent the greek colonies and greek-influenced Italic peoples (including Romans, Latins and Etruscans).

@Jolt: thanks for the confirmation. I thought that I could refind the answer on wiki, but strangely couldn't find it . BTW, if funditores were used in a unit name like the auxillia, would it be like "auxillia funditorii" or something?

Thanks

Chairman

[Jolt]

I'm not well versed in latin, and my knowledge comes from own language (Portuguese) as well as Spanish and French, which are Latin Languages.
As far as I'm aware (Once again, I'm not sure) Funditores are already plural of the word Funditor or Funditore (I'm kinda speculating really) since in Portuguese, we call the sling "Funda" and the slinger "Fundideiro" (pl. Fundideiros) mainly because our word for the funditore: "Fundidor" is already taken, meaning in English "Forger" or "Blacksmith". Still, our plural of "Fundidor" is "Fundidores" which is why I think "funditores" is a plural word already.

Summing it up, I suppose the correct term for what you wish would be "Auxillia Funditores"

(p.s.- Not sure as well, but I think Auxillia, as an adjective, should come after Funditores, making it "Funditores Auxillia", but I'm not sure of that in Latin)

[keravnos]

Thanks Keravnos!

I didn't actually mean foriegners with the perioikoi, but I couldn't remember what their status actually was. If I use perioikoi (as a second class spartan unit), would the correct name be "Perioikoi Hoplitai"?

On the latin slingers, IIRC, accensi were baggage handlers or some-such supernumerary group who were armed with slings for the sake of the game, while funditores means ~ "sling-armed soldier".

Chairman

Perioikoi hoplitai is great. So far as the accensi go, well, I think you know better.
So far as having Spartan instructors, it sure is great, so long as you survive...