Greek names for stuff (Q?)

[keravnos]

@Russia: second-rate Spartan is still quite relative though, compared to something like other states' militia hoplites . Besides, the perioikoi weren't held to nearly as high standards as the Spartan homoioi "equals", so 'second-rate' is not too far off.

OK, so more name questions (greek):

In units like Thessalian cavalry, does the 'ethnic' or 'type' descriptor come first? Example, is it Thessalike Xystophoroi or Xystophoroi Thessalike?

In my game I want peltasts to be more like the 5th century style rather than the armored 3rd century style. For the heavier version, should I call them Thorakitai Peltastai?

Also does "Hoplitai Haploi" mean militia hoplites or is it something else? And what exactly does "pantadapoi" mean?

For Latin:

Clipeata means 'armed with hoplite shield' but would that mean that say Samnitici Clipeata is Samnite Hoplites?

And what is the latin for Latin as in the Latin tribes allied to Rome?

Thanks!

Chairman

So far as whichever gets first, it makes no difference as both were used. As a rule of thumb, "Ethnic" goes first, or rather "regional", as in "Thessalikoi hippeis"

Thessalikoi=Plural male
Thessalike=Singular female, but could also be used in "Thessalike ile" (=thessalian [cavalry] squadron) if such a unit is desired.

I would use "Thessalikoi xystophoroi", even if "Xystophoroi Thessalikoi" is fine. It depends really where you would want the emphasis placed. On the unit or where it is from.

Now, so far as peltasts is concerned, hmm, "Peltastai thorakitai" defeats the purpose of them, I think... however I can see no alternative.
Peltastai by EB time had been mostly eclipsed by Thureophoroi, and then Celtic/Romani influence turned those into "Thorakitai".
I would rather go for "Peltastai Epilektoi" or "chosen peltasts" as the best among the Peltasts would basically buy the means to arm themselves in battle. But that is me.

"Hoplitai haploi" means "plain hoplites" or "Simple hoplites", even "levy hoplites" and it signifies the big majority of people who couldn't afford neither a shield, nor a helmet and had one provided for them by the state. This would signify the bigh majority of the "Demos" in urbanized areas such as Athens, or Sparta.

In fact if there was to be a "categorization" of sorts of hoplites, in my opinion it would go something like this...

1. Hoplitai Epilektoi (Chosen hoplites). I would like to refer you to the following thread where they and their historical appearances are discussed in length...
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...29#post2838929
(Those would be the city states' finest- basically the aristocracy, able to afford a full bronze muscle cuirass and a 10 mm bronze coated aspis). They were small in number and a force which was always on standby, rather than conscripted or levied into action like the two following categories. (Only the finest of helmets for those, aka (phrygian, without facemask probably, rich attic, or thracian or thracoattic, with engraved cheekguards etc)

2. Hoplites (Linothorax cuirass, 5 mm bronze coated aspis shield). These would mean the "medium" hoplites who would be the sons of middle class citizens, aka merchants, farmers, with good armament mostly and elaborate helmets (Attic, Thracian, even the odd Corinthian from grandpa who fought in Salamis and won't let anybody forget . Later on the Italo-Corinthian/Pseudo-Corinthian would come into effect, but more so in S. Italy/Sicily, whereas in mainland Ascalon/Sidon type helmets would prevail)

3. Hoplites haploi (Plain wooden aspis shield sometimes without even bronze coating). Those would be the large majority of the city dwellers in the ancient times. Living in bad conditions, 2nd or 3rd sons, with not much to go on with, and as Hammond writes in "Phillip of Macedon"..."In any slave-owning society every citizen without a capital of sorts find himself in direct opposition to the slave-labor which works without payment". As such what Aristophanes (famous comedian) writes in 393 BCE. "Let's send a fleet! The poor vote YES!, while the "moneyed" [meaning the well off,store owners, artisans, aka middle class] and farmers NO!". The poor always hoped for loot or even a "klerouchy" meaning the killing off of original people and the creation of an Athenian colony in there. According to Isokrates, they were most pleased with the Rhetors who would ask for war than those who wanted peace. In fact in 355 when Athens tried to mobilize its allies for war, the real reason was its poor citizens who had reached a "boiling point" so far as their living conditions were concerned. Being poor in ancient greek world was just about the worst fate, with the absolute worst being a slave in the mines. A house-slave would be sure to have something to eat, for a poor freeman this wasn't guaranteed. It was that reason why as Aristoteles wrote "The Demos tried to alleviate some of that pressure on the poor with altruism payments, but those never managed to raise the living standard of those poor beyond that of a (minimum wage) worker". Their greatest chance was a succesful war. In that they would serve either as rowers, or as "hoplitai haploi" with all the necessary equipment provided for them by the state. In fact Hammond considers that "Theorikon Tameion" (=Theorikon fund, in name a way to supplement the ticket for poorer people to watch the theatrical plays of greats as Euripides, Sophokles and others) was established in 354 BCE in Athens as a way to insure a "ready to be conscripted" force for Poor Athenians to go to war. Those who would sign up for free tickets would be called up for service. Their loss whould help stabilise the state, while their off chance of winning would create a "Kleruchy". This meant that the Aegean island which would have that Kleruchy installed on (as was the case in 90% of the time) would stay Athenian. (Look up the history of Samos Island for more details)

Hoplitai Haploi mean "plain", "simple", "unadorned" hoplites. The hoplitai haploi would have a Konos or pilos helmet, wear a simple chiton or exomis, or even a loincloth, and their equipment was as good as the cheapest weapon supplier that won the contract. A knife would have to do where the richer hoplites would have a xiphos or kopis, and having a knife to use wouldn't be sure. Again, it depended on what the state was willing to pay for armament. The bronze coating on their shields would be the thinnest possible, and about half of them wouldn't have any to begin with.

-> "Misthophoroi" hoplites would be the n.2. Xenophon mentions that all the hoplites who went to fight did have a cuirass, most linothorax so they wouldn't qualify for "hoplites haploi".

"Pantodapoi" means " Those who come (originate) From ALL over". To be distinguished from "Allodapoi" which means "Those who come (originate) from ELSEWHERE".

I hope that was helpful. When you do have some more news for your game, do let us know.