weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[Ibrahim]

sorry-I'm really really excited-just opened EB 1.1 for the first time.
before I order the charge of the hoplitai: was the looseness of the hoplitai fixed? and is it me or are the doru's longer?

[Watchman]

What looseness ? Anyways, I don't think the models/whatever were done anything with so the spears should be what they always were.

[Ibrahim]

the problem wich made people put them on guard mode to keep cohesion, and let the enemy come...
and I was wondering about the doru's because they looked really really long..I dunno, eyes play tricks you know..

[Watchman]

Oh, that. Part of the engine, so no. Use guardmode. It's the only way to keep units in nice tight ordered ranks that doesn't involve possibly crazy broken EDU changes, and works well enough on the offense too.

And yeah, the doru were still kind of the long side the last I saw.

[TWFanatic]

It's the only way to keep units in nice tight ordered ranks that doesn't involve possibly crazy broken EDU changes, and works well enough on the offense too.

*ahem*

Allow me to bloviate on the benefits of short_pike.

BEFORE they get short_pike trait:

They march with the tops of their spears magically dragging beneath the ground and their butt spikes in the air.
AFTER they get short_pike trait:

They march with spears held level and pointed forward.

BEFORE:

They break formation and charge like unorganized rabble.
AFTER:

They stay in a tight, orderly formation and slam into the enemy as one - an invincible, unstoppable phalanx.

BEFORE:

They fight like barbarians, individuals fighting for personal glory with no resemblance of a formation.
AFTER:

They fight like, well, a phalanx! A single, implacable body pushing the enemy backwards with great force until they finally break and run.

As we can see, hoplitai behave far more accurately and realistically with short_pike than without it. If anything, they ar more bugged without it, as I have just shown.

[Khazar_Dahvos]

Bravo!!!!

[Tellos Athenaios]

Ahem. That's not with guard mode on, which is what Watchman is referring to. Sides the short_pike is what you might call a crazy EDU trick to get them behave like they should've done without. Which is something Watchman included in his sentence as well. Finally at a cost. Namey: the short pike comes with boni & mali.

(And I very much doubt they marched with their spears held level, given the, ehm, nasty butt spike.)

Apart from that anyone'd agree that the current situation is far from ideal. Let's see what they (animation & model guys) cook up for EB2. Off to look at that unit concepting page...

[TWFanatic]

Ahem. That's not with guard mode on, which is what Watchman is referring to.

Precisely. Many people consider guard mode vastly inferior to short_pike.

(And I very much doubt they marched with their spears held level, given the, ehm, nasty butt spike.)

Do you very much doubt that they marched with the tops of their spears dragging magically below ground? The former is far more plausible than they latter--and it looks much better.

Note that I'm not trying to press my opinions on anyone, I'm just tired of people dissing my beloved short_pike attribute.

[russia almighty]

TW, the reason why the spears drag in the ground, is because the EB team doesn't have an animator, or something like that. Other mods have hoplites that fight in the overhand method too;and, their spears aren't dragging in the ground.

[Ibrahim]

why not edit unit spacig (I imagine that is moddable)?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Precisely. Many people consider guard mode vastly inferior to short_pike.

Eh? Either you have been misinterpreting me, or something ... Anyways: what I meant is that one should compare your changes to the guard mode. And that you seem not to have been doing that at all.

Do you very much doubt that they marched with the tops of their spears dragging magically below ground? The former is far more plausible than they latter--and it looks much better.

No, I don't. However, that's caused by anim + spearlength. I do not doubt, actually, that they marched with their spears in the same fashion as they currently do in EB - apart for that magic ground stuff going on. (Even I have seen vase paintings of marching hoplites...)

So for me it's between something which is physically impossible yet aims to resemble how they actually marched (it fails, due to the magic ground thingy); or something which is, IMO practically dodgy as well (the butt spike) as not aiming for the historical accuracy.

Note that I'm not trying to press my opinions on anyone, I'm just tired of people dissing my beloved short_pike attribute.

Okay, to each his own. I am just tired of people who advertise themselves like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

BEFORE they get short_pike trait:

They march with the tops of their spears magically dragging beneath the ground and their butt spikes in the air.
AFTER they get short_pike trait:

They march with spears held level and pointed forward.

BEFORE:

They break formation and charge like unorganized rabble.
AFTER:

They stay in a tight, orderly formation and slam into the enemy as one - an invincible, unstoppable phalanx.

BEFORE:

They fight like barbarians, individuals fighting for personal glory with no resemblance of a formation.
AFTER:

They fight like, well, a phalanx! A single, implacable body pushing the enemy backwards with great force until they finally break and run.

As we can see, hoplitai behave far more accurately and realistically with short_pike than without it. If anything, they ar more bugged without it, as I have just shown.

I suppose you understand why?

Ultimately this is a matter of taste, though.

[TWFanatic]

Ultimately this is a matter of taste, though.

Quite so. However, because you have requested that I compare short_pike to guard mode, I will bring you a complete comparison shortly.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

OK, so in EB 1.1, we should always have Guard Mode switched on for hoplites and phalangites? Including triarii?

Thanks

[TWFanatic]

Anyways: what I meant is that one should compare your changes to the guard mode. And that you seem not to have been doing that at all.

I seem to have forgotten. You quoted my very comparison of my changes to guard mode. I systematically showed, with screenshots, why short_pike is superior. Nevertheless, I will shortly follow up with more screenshots and analysis.

I am not advertising anything by the way. I don't care whether anyone downloads my mods, I don't earn any profit from it. It is made purely for the enjoyment of others, much like EB itself. If you don't want it, don't download it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Everything that resembles a hoplite / shieldwall formation yes. Guard mode tells the engine to stick to formation (better) apart from not giving chase.

[Olimpian]

Sorry to disturb this ongoing debate,but how do you give a unit,lets say classical hoplites, short_pike ability ?

[TWFanatic]

@Tellos: Guard mode is indeed wonderful for that. However, the downside is that on you cannot attack with it on. You are stuck. Even with the phalanx formation, you are more flexible, because you can at least attack. Additionally, the unit will not press forward with guard mode on, it just sits there. Thus, it is purely a defensive mechanism. This is especially disappointing with Camilan Triarii when one wants to attack in the triplex acies and can't sit in one spot with guard mode on.

If you do attack with guard mode on, the unit will charge then stop, only to sit in one spot (rather than pushing forward). Worse yet, the unit turns sideways. This is a tremendous annoyance. I have a screenshot of this phenomenon somewhere...I'm sure we have all experienced it though.

Another reason short_pike is beneficial is that it differentiates the hoplitai phalanx from the formation of ordinary spearmen. This variety adds a tremendous amount of enjoyment to the use of this type of unit.

@Olimpian: First, find your RTW directory. It should be here: C Drive/Program Files/Activision/Rome: Total War. Next, open your EB folder. You will see "export_descr_unit backup folders". Choose one EDU (export_descr_unit) file to edit. I recommend trying the multiplayer one first, so that you can test on a custom battle. Next, open the EDU file that you have chosen. Press cntrl-f and search for "hellenistic infantry hoplitai" (without the quotation marks). You will be taken to a block of text for that unit. Next to the word "attributes", add "short_pike" (again without the quotation marks). Be sure to use a comma after each entry.

Good luck, and enjoy!

[Tellos Athenaios]

I find I have no real trouble attacking units when I turn my guard mode on... Though, timing get's considerably more crucial; and you should really bring in some supportive troops for the assault. Then again, that's what Peltastai and some basic cavarly cover extensively enough.

(I've prepared some screenshots of my own to, but guess they are no longer neccesary. )

I have however not yet experienced any units turning sideways - with guard mode on. I have seen it happen with guard mode off in street fights, but then again those are a different disaster altogether... <_<

[Ibrahim]

at that, who wants to wait till ~30yrds from the enmy to strike?
but yes tellos' idea works indeed-just really really hard to do

[Watchman]

I pretty much always stick my hoplites and other close-packed units into guardmode, except when I find the particular tactical occasion to merit allowing them a looser rein. Worked right fine thus far.

I stay the fig away from the short_pike as the visual effect is least said dodgy IMO, and after my experiences with plain spear (which according to the EDU Guide at least gives *less* pushing power than short_pike) am leery in the extreme of the potential for statting-consistency mayhem.

Same reason I've become quite wary of the BI shieldwall special formation these days.

Plus to be entirely blunt about it, giving short_pike to hoplites and them alone smacks to me of Ph34t L3wt fanboyism. As spear infantry went they weren't really particularly special when in comes down to that. Representing what those guys were and weren't good at works well enough with the current light_spear and guardmode, and above all keeps them in line with the rest of the roster - namely, as capable and pretty tough but somewhat over-specialised "middleweight" spearmen. Hell, given their actual historical track record, I personally rather suspect the EB stat allocation is really a bit on the generous side already...

But as Tellos says, matter of taste.

[TWFanatic]

Hell, given their actual historical track record, I personally rather suspect the EB stat allocation is really a bit on the generous side already...

Then we agree on this point at least. I have reduced the killing power of my hoplitai. Ditto with the armor. I feel they are too invulnerable to rear-attacks as they are.

[Watchman]

Oh, no, the armour's just fine. They gets them points for what they wears; trust the guy who double-checked every single unit's armour value on this. (I can rattle off the numbers off the top of my head if you want...)

I was thinking more of the psychology thing. IIRC they're ATM "12, disciplined" which may be a little on the generous side given the degree of brittleness they often displayed. 'Course, the ones in our period may be a bit more "pro" crew than the old rather one-trick-pony citizen militias used to be, dunno really.

[Olimpian]

@TWFanatic : Thanks for the info
P.S.

First, find your RTW directory

That was a bit of a no-brainer...I had no idea asking such a question would make me look so noobish(and I am when it comes to messing with game files) people would think I don't even know where my EB is installed

[NeoSpartan]

Here's my take on the thing.

Short-pike just don't look right. I can live with the light spear dradding on the floor, but I cannot deal with the RTW Hoplite look-alike.

I never really thought of the stat issues shortpikes can bring with regards to other spear units. (I do however, know that shield wall is an issue).

Now with regards to in game preformance of hoplites in "HOLD" and not. Its the same as with any spear unit:
1- Mainly a defensive position, and it works best with spear units than sword units.

2- Charging with HOLD on is can be an issue if u time it wrong or if u have other friendly units in the way. That is why I charge and THEN press "hold".

3- Units DO tend to stand sideways or give their backs to the enemy if you tell the to HOLD in the middle of the fight. So u gotta have to keep an eye on ur spear units when they fight.

4- Hoplites in particular in HOLD are VERY hard to kill thanks to their armor and high mass (they don't get pushed back, whereas spearmen like Gaeroas do get pushed back).

5- I take HOLD off we its time to finish of the enemy quickly. Ex: Hoplites in HOLD pinning the enemy, Spartans hit the rear WITHOUT hold.

-------> at the end of the day... I like my hoplite formations the way they are.

[Gaivs]

Didnt the Spartan Lambda not have feet? I believe thats a later addition. i.e just /\

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Are those 1.1 pics? We have fixed the lambdas twice already.

[Redmeth]

The change was committed by me and those pics are not 1.1.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Excellent.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yet another debate about the hoplite animation in EB... I think everyone should do as they like. If someone wants to have the short_pike attribute, let him do so or advertise himself. I personally play with BI and such I prefer the shield_wall. Though the current animation with the long spears annoys me qite a bit to be honest...