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Is it just me or has phalanx mode for units like Thorakitai Hoplitai and Iphkrateous Hoplitai been removed?
Yes. It has been.
The unit boyz weren't happy about their performance and how it compares to what they should've been in real history. (FYI: the Alpine Phalanx & the Germanic Phalanx had their phalanx abilities removed also; and IIRC the same goes for the Indohellenikoi.)
The unit boyz weren't happy about their performance and how it compares to what they should've been in real history. (FYI: the Alpine Phalanx & the Germanic Phalanx had their phalanx abilities removed also; and IIRC the same goes for the Indohellenikoi.)
I fear that might make them useless given that KH has also access to Thorakitai, Thureophoroi and Classical Hoplites of different quality. I only know them as opponents from a short Epeirote campaign I did with the pre-1.1 internal built, and even Phalangitai Deuteroi had no problems with the Thorakitai (ex-)Phalanx, while Classicals were able to fight down Iphikratians without much trouble.
Removing the phalanx ability makes perfect sense for the Germanic or Celtic units, IMHO, but should not be done for Greek units - or give them the short_pike attribute instead.
Removing the phalanx ability makes perfect sense for the Germanic or Celtic units, IMHO, but should not be done for Greek units - or give them the short_pike attribute instead.
It was removed from Komatai Stratiotai and Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai too.
it's really quite cool from my brief testing- nothing more frighening than those spear guys moving full speed at your cavalry once thought safe from phalanx who can't move faster than a shield-frog 
Yeah, they basically turned into hoplites/other close-packed spearmen. Quite a few of them, like the Iphicrateans, are so lightly armed they ended up quite fast in comparision to regular Hops and suchlike, so you're best off thinking of them as "Hoplite lite" trading heavier armour (and due higher cost) for mobility. IIRC, the Iphics at least were also given the "hardy" attribute (which regular Hoplites lack) to allow for another of the advantages of a lighter panoply.
"short_pike" is AFAIK kinda screwy in way too many ways, plus nobody had any hard data on how exactly it affects an unit's stats and "pushing weight" anyway.
Gotta work with what's available.
"short_pike" is AFAIK kinda screwy in way too many ways, plus nobody had any hard data on how exactly it affects an unit's stats and "pushing weight" anyway.
Gotta work with what's available.Originally Posted by Watchman:
"short_pike" is AFAIK kinda screwy in way too many ways, plus nobody had any hard data on how exactly it affects an unit's stats and "pushing weight" anyway.
I had used it in my last three 1.0 campaigns for Hoplites and the like. It is screwed in matters of animation because the rear lines hold their spears in a very strange angle what looks odd when these have to fight, for example, cavalry or other infantry attacking the flanks or rear of the formation."short_pike" is AFAIK kinda screwy in way too many ways, plus nobody had any hard data on how exactly it affects an unit's stats and "pushing weight" anyway.
I can't give you any data on how it affects the stats. I had the impression that they are less lethal but better in defending. I had serious problems to break Haploi with Hastati, for example, but even Spartiatai were not able to shredder weaker enemies within a few minutes. There was a clear difference, as well tacitcal as in preformance, between Classical Hoplites and Theurophoroi - two units that are otherwise very much the same.
I have no idea what it does to underhand units, but may be it is worth testing.
There are upsides and downsides. Personally, I consider the upsides to outweigh the downsides. Additionally, I like how it differentiates the hoplitai phalanx from the Macedonian phalanx or ordinary spearman.
Each to his own tastes. I have included this attribute along with some minor stat changes in my mod in order to better reflect how I feel hoplitai should perform from a historical and gameplay perspective, however I do not expect the EB team to agree with me. If anyone wants it they are free to download my mod (currently being updated for 1.1) or modify their own game themselves. The same goes for any other changes. EB is virtually perfect by RTW standards (i.e., as good as it gets with the RTW engine); any changes that can be made to it are purely a matter of preference.
Each to his own tastes. I have included this attribute along with some minor stat changes in my mod in order to better reflect how I feel hoplitai should perform from a historical and gameplay perspective, however I do not expect the EB team to agree with me. If anyone wants it they are free to download my mod (currently being updated for 1.1) or modify their own game themselves. The same goes for any other changes. EB is virtually perfect by RTW standards (i.e., as good as it gets with the RTW engine); any changes that can be made to it are purely a matter of preference.
Yeah,I agree with TWFanatic. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages: They can charge,form up quicker,and they're apparently stronger in individual combat,as well.
Besides,IMO hoplites just look so much cooler when my enemies have to charge a wall of big bronze aspides. And on top of that,it greatly increases their mobility and flexibility.in turn making light infantry a little less important in regards to defending those ever-vulnerable flanks.
And in my experience,EB hoplites seem to hold a battle line a lot better than vanilla hoplites.
And they forced a major rethinking of my previous hoplite army tactics,which remedied my over-reliance on heavy cavalry. Much thanks goes out to the EB team for that.
Besides,IMO hoplites just look so much cooler when my enemies have to charge a wall of big bronze aspides. And on top of that,it greatly increases their mobility and flexibility.in turn making light infantry a little less important in regards to defending those ever-vulnerable flanks.
And in my experience,EB hoplites seem to hold a battle line a lot better than vanilla hoplites.
And they forced a major rethinking of my previous hoplite army tactics,which remedied my over-reliance on heavy cavalry. Much thanks goes out to the EB team for that.
Suit yourselves. Still, having spent an entire evening exhaustively testing it, methinks the "short_spear" attribute works best overall. If nothing else it doesn't do completely crazy things to the unit's "push weight" - with just "spear", the damn Nizag Gund were shoving bloody Grivpanvar all over the place...
"short_pike" apparently has an even more dramatic effect on "pushing" ability, although I never even tried that. The mind boggles.
Maybe a bit offtopic, but shouldn't the Iphilcratic Hoplites have longer spears than the Classical ones?
Originally Posted by Watchman:
"short_pike" apparently has an even more dramatic effect on "pushing" ability, although I never even tried that. The mind boggles.
They are not able to push long pike phalanx, if that' what's worrying you. I don't know how they push heavy cavalry, because no cavalry is able to survive toe to toe with Hoplites long enough to be pushed somewhere. Nizag Gund are certainly not a candidate for short_pikes, that should be reserved for pre-sarrisa phalanx."short_pike" apparently has an even more dramatic effect on "pushing" ability, although I never even tried that. The mind boggles.
I hope the Dacian Phalanxes are not candidates for short_pike, their spears are quite long for non-phalanx formation capable infantry.
What's worrying, though is that relatively low-mass (light) infantry apparently can get some quirky dynamics from those attributes when encountering very-high-mass (cata) cavalry. What they (might) end up doing against light swordsmen or axemen is another thing to take into account.
That's exactly what I was worrying about too - completely off-scale "pushing mass". IIRC the Nizags, when given spear instead of light_spear, had no noticeable trouble pushing around those Galatian heavy sword-spear guys whatevertheirnamenowwasagain...
(That said the way units with spear also behaved decidedly oddly in respects to both causing and receiving casualties, compared to light_spear. The repeatable pattern in fact seemed to rather go against what the EDU Guide said the respective attributes' game effects to be...
short_pike being even more of a question mark, and certainly quirkier, I'd personally rather not touch it with the proverbial 11' pole at least without some pretty damn rigorous testing.)
Originally Posted by konny:
I don't know how they push heavy cavalry, because no cavalry is able to survive toe to toe with Hoplites long enough to be pushed somewhere.
I doubt that. Both being Regular grade troops, the Nizags and common Hoplitai have the exact same attack value - which, as far as the rate at which the horsemen drop goes, is all that matters.I don't know how they push heavy cavalry, because no cavalry is able to survive toe to toe with Hoplites long enough to be pushed somewhere.
(That said the way units with spear also behaved decidedly oddly in respects to both causing and receiving casualties, compared to light_spear. The repeatable pattern in fact seemed to rather go against what the EDU Guide said the respective attributes' game effects to be...
short_pike being even more of a question mark, and certainly quirkier, I'd personally rather not touch it with the proverbial 11' pole at least without some pretty damn rigorous testing.)
Well, for me the TWFanatic's hoplitai were quite perfect => I starteg my old Roman EB 1.0 campaign without that and I was not very pleased with hoplites standing against me. Then, after installing his mod, the hoplitai became much more trouble, against which I had to think more and take appropriate precautions... including recruitment of more slingers to wear those hoplon-carrying boyz down a little with AP sling bullets...
You know, before sending the hastati, principes and triarii, usage of a 3-silver chevron slinger unit is highly recommended...
You know, before sending the hastati, principes and triarii, usage of a 3-silver chevron slinger unit is highly recommended...
Doesn't particularly ease my reservations about the whole thing, you know. I'm pretty sure the hoplites - a frankly rather limited and, by the relevant timeframe, behind-the-times form of grunt-grade spearman - are not supposed to be that tough...I think perhaps they were becoming 'behind the times' simply because of lack of availability? They were only citizen soldiers, after all.
And of course, the increasing importance of combined arms and mobility as Alex Megas proved. They were after only one side of the equation.
And of course, the increasing importance of combined arms and mobility as Alex Megas proved. They were after only one side of the equation.
Originally Posted by Darth Stalin:
Well, for me the TWFanatic's hoplitai were quite perfect => I starteg my old Roman EB 1.0 campaign without that and I was not very pleased with hoplites standing against me. Then, after installing his mod, the hoplitai became much more trouble, against which I had to think more and take appropriate precautions... including recruitment of more slingers to wear those hoplon-carrying boyz down a little with AP sling bullets...
You know, before sending the hastati, principes and triarii, usage of a 3-silver chevron slinger unit is highly recommended...
Same here- without TWFanatic's mod, hoplite units (as well as Dacian phalanx spearmen and etc) either go on guard mode and all face the wrong way (the AI does this horribly as well- I just fought some Spartan hoplites who promptly turned and faced the other direction when attacked, while my unit attacking them was the only one around), or break formation in combat and fight like individual spearmen instead of any semblance of a shield wall- stats be damned, I just like the look of it better, even though the butt-spike march does look strange.Well, for me the TWFanatic's hoplitai were quite perfect => I starteg my old Roman EB 1.0 campaign without that and I was not very pleased with hoplites standing against me. Then, after installing his mod, the hoplitai became much more trouble, against which I had to think more and take appropriate precautions... including recruitment of more slingers to wear those hoplon-carrying boyz down a little with AP sling bullets...
You know, before sending the hastati, principes and triarii, usage of a 3-silver chevron slinger unit is highly recommended...
Watchman wouldn't you say the hoplite is behind the time specifically because people had learned how to beat it and not it's bad at doing what it's designed to do, ie push frontally? Like flanking cavalry or heck just skirmish all the way.
Hoplites were not a bad unit by themselves, they could easily beat most eastern infantry.
However, they became out of use because of a few factors:
- phalangites were more cost effective in the anvil role
- they were quite disadvantaged in rough terrain and against skirmishers
- their equipment was inflexible compared to most units, limiting the strategical usefulness
That said, an hoplite phalanx was a respected enemy in a classical style grunt fight but as combined arms tactics were becoming the rule hoplites were too limited to be an useful tool for most generals.
However, they became out of use because of a few factors:
- phalangites were more cost effective in the anvil role
- they were quite disadvantaged in rough terrain and against skirmishers
- their equipment was inflexible compared to most units, limiting the strategical usefulness
That said, an hoplite phalanx was a respected enemy in a classical style grunt fight but as combined arms tactics were becoming the rule hoplites were too limited to be an useful tool for most generals.
Wasn't the whole idea of the hoplite phalanx the amount of push they could generate. Watching 2 units of hoplite engage with the short pike and spear attributes they tend to just push each others shields against one anothers until one breaks formation. Isn't that how it used to happen anyways? I'm pretty sure if they were faced with other enemies who didn't use any kind of phalanx theyd push them completely backwards.
The southern city states of Greece who used these hoplites were really only conquored by 3 people to my knowledge, each other, Alexandros, and Rome. Alexander's and Rome's reputation speaks for themselves.
The southern city states of Greece who used these hoplites were really only conquored by 3 people to my knowledge, each other, Alexandros, and Rome. Alexander's and Rome's reputation speaks for themselves.
sorry, warriors actually used weapons and that typically affected a battle more than 'push'... c'mon now... seriously? 'push' to death? 
t'was no playground.
t'was no playground.Generally, the easiest way to get the enemy shiedlwall to defray was to kill a guy or two to create a gap and then push into that...
And I don't really see why the hoplites would have been all that much better at that shoving-match stuff than most other close-order heavy inf anyway. Their specialised training and equipement for it is already pretty much accounted for by the assorted unit stats, such as the somewhat high soldier mass value.
And I don't really see why the hoplites would have been all that much better at that shoving-match stuff than most other close-order heavy inf anyway. Their specialised training and equipement for it is already pretty much accounted for by the assorted unit stats, such as the somewhat high soldier mass value.
I've never understood what was the difference between a classic phalanx, and a bunch of dirty Germans in a shield wall. Wouldn't both come down to whoever can create a gap first wins?
So why not just give the Sweboz or Helveti or whatever unit the short_pike too?
If the pushing effect is excessive you can always lower the unit mass, in XGM it did the job (maybe even too well) with the phalangites...
Originally Posted by Parallel Pain:
So why not just give the Sweboz or Helveti or whatever unit the short_pike too?
Short_pike works only for units, whose only weapon is spear. It won`t work for all those javelin chukking barbs or spear&sword elite units.So why not just give the Sweboz or Helveti or whatever unit the short_pike too?
IMHO shield_wall is a much better solution, as it is independent of wielded weapons. It requires BI though.
Originally Posted by russia almighty:
I've never understood what was the difference between a classic phalanx, and a bunch of dirty Germans in a shield wall. Wouldn't both come down to whoever can create a gap first wins?
I've never understood what was the difference between a classic phalanx, and a bunch of dirty Germans in a shield wall. Wouldn't both come down to whoever can create a gap first wins?
I don't know much about the Germans but the hoplites were supposed to fight with interlocked shields and push while shield wall is more defensive.
Remember Spartans actually run during the last meters while maintaining their formation, one of their most fearsome features.
Yes, so did people in shield walls with interlocked shields in the middle ages. Its a common thing, the only reason that Greeks get top billing is probably that whole 'cradle of western civilization' thing that people like to portray them as.
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