Question for expirenced nomad faction players

[fenix3279]

I've finally broken down and decided to my luck as one of the nomad factions. I hear many good things about horse archers and have been tempted to try them out for a while now. This is a radical change for me since none of the other factions I've played have ever had such a horse archer dominated army. I'm used to the combat styles of the Celts, Romans, and Greek so I am overwhemingly inexpirenced at hit-and-run warfare. I admit, I have always wanted to learn more about the Scythians and from what I know, they were mainly a horse archer dominated army. Should I try my first nomad campaign as the Sauromatae or would you recommend another? I would also like the faction to have a "decent" infantry force as well since I am sure it's rather difficult to capture cities with naught but horsies. Any advice before I embark on my perilous (but freakishly awesome) journey?

[stupac]

Nomad factions are definitely fun but can be challenging, not because horse archer armies are weak (quite the opposite), but because the odds will generally be way against you because of their weak economies. I've played Sauromatae and Saka, and a little Pahlava. I would recommend going on the offensive early with your starting armies. In battles, if your enemy has any archers or slingers, put your horse archers in loose formation and take them out first. Then whittle down your enemies, phalanxes and other heavy infantry will need to be hit from the back. Often times it's a good a idea to divide your troops into three groups, one in the middle, left and right flanks to form a horseshoe around the enemy forces. Once the arrows are expended, charge home with your heavier calvary, try to isolate more cohesive units and hit them from both sides, which usually causes and instant route, often even with weaker level phalanxes, general's bodyguards are great for this. If someone gets aggressive with you, and the AI sends a stack your way while you still can only field a quarter to half stack, no fear, attack them anyways and fight until your arrows are expended, then withdraw, don't waste troops in charges until you are sure you can break them. Make sure you only keep calvary in these "attrition" armies as infantry will only slow you down. You may technically "lose," and the enemy will recover some casualties, but you can whittle down large forces that way. I defeated 2 full stacks of baktrian phalanxes using only 2 generals and 3 horse archers in this manner. Don't forget, terrain is extremely important, keep your archers on high ground, especially when facing enemy missiles, and don't waste arrows firing into heavy infantry's shields.

Taking cities isn't usually that bad, as the AI is usually stupid enough not to keep a strong garrison, or to bring up reinforcements so you end up fighting in the field. Plus, you can just siege them until they capitulate or sally. Since the odds will generally be against you, they'll probably sally. Though, with a few horse archers, and unlimited room to run, you can whittle down powerful infantry armies to nothing, no matter how large.

I'd probably recommend either the Saka or Pahlava if you want to use a mix of infantry and traditional steppe calvary, but they don't get any decent infantry till late in the game. Sauromatae are probably the easiest because they aren't surrounded by tons of strong factions, and can just deal with Eleutheroi at their leisure, though they don't really get any great infantry to speak of. I don't think Hayasadan is technically a nomad faction, but has lots of horse archers and nomadic style calvary plus awesome infantry, so that is also a viable option.

[fenix3279]

Wow, what a great read! Thanks for all the help, Stupac. I especially enjoyed the part about attacking a force much larger than your own, withdrawing, and then later repeating the process to wear them down little by little. Simply ingenious I say. Also, the tip about setting formation to loose against ranged units will also come in handy. As will the "horseshoe" attack formation you described. I'm so excited now, I want to get started already.
These tips were very well thought out and I'm sure I'll have a blast with my new Saka campaign. Thanks again. Oh and one more thing Stupac. You get a for being such a big help. You earned it dude.

[MerlinusCDXX]

I'd recommend Pahlava as a first "nomad" campaign. They get good regular HA's with a pretty wide AoR, good steppe riders (HA/light lancer hybrid) in their steppe regions, good hybrid HA/ medium cav, excellent armored HA's (slower than HA/ riders, but good melee capabilities), 2 types of early cataphracts ( 1 with sword 2ndary for regular melee, and 1 with AP mace 2ndary), and their BG units are cataphract archers w/ an awesome charge, and their late cataphracts/BG are just scary (late BG lose the bow, though). Also, if you pursue the Reformed government, you can get a variety of good cheap foot archers/slingers/skirmishers and decent if a bit expensive Greek style infantry. You also have the option to use Greek (Diadochi) regionals for infantry duty. If you push straight for the Seleukid Persian lands early, your economy should be able to support anything you need to do. Plus, the reformed gov't allows you to develop your cities beyond the point that a "pure" nomad faction would. That said, the Pahlava are more like a "nomads in transition" faction than a true nomadic faction like the Saka or Sauromatae (though the Saka do get a reform where they can recruit Indo-Greek infantry as well).

[Apgad]

Yeah, agree with Stupac. I'm about 20 years into a Saka campaign (after I got about 30 years into a Saka campaign in 1.0!), and I tend to use my FMs a lot in battles.

As your settlements are going to be fairly poor compared to everywhere else, they don't seem to make very tempting targets to the AI. That means you can get by with very small garrisons, and I generally don't waste FMs on this task.

Also, as you'll probably go into debt quite quickly at the start, you're better off making the most of your starting armies. If you can use them to conquer a few settlements that's great, but attrition can be your friend when you don't have to pay dead horse archers!

I suppose the other thing to get used to (which I'm not 100% on yet) is the different "lifestyle" choices - nomadism, pastoralism, or the client state option. If I've taken a fairly well-developed settlement in a position that's central to a region that I will probably need heavy foot troops then I'll go for the client state option. Otherwise, I tend to use pastoralism where I can (for some limited economic benefits, as well as some roads), and only going with nomadism where that's the only option. Of course, in 20 years time I might completely rethink this strategy...

Even though I'm still very much doing trial-and-error, I've found this nomad campaign extremely interesting, and very entertaining. It's certainly a challenge, and very different from western infantry-based campaigns, but certainly well worth the effort.

Good luck!

[Korlon]

What I find nice about the more nomadic factions are that, in every battle, my goal isn't just to win the battle, but to ensure the survival of as many of my horse archers as possible. Many instances where I had wins where I had single digit or no casualties. Quite a fun thing.

[eggthief]

I'd go for the Sauromatea, disband the armies in the east and expand west towards the Baltics, where u can recruit infantry.

[artavazd]

When I use horse archers I use the steppe riders, and if I have acces the arosi riders. These are the horse archers which also have a lance that can get a pretty decent charge going. What I do is I charge say a phalanx unit from the back with one unit of my steppe riders, and when the phalanx unit turns around to meet the threat I unleash about 4 units to its back. The phalanx instantly breaks even the elite phalanx units. I dont use the horse archers which have a little dagger for melee the steppe riders when charging in numbers say 3 units and up break anything.

[lobf]

What I did in my mostrecent pahlava campaign was to pack all my FMs and beginning HAs and sacked Persepolis, then Seleukeia, then Babylon, and established myself in all three places. Then with the money i made looting and enslaving (exterminating) I'm building a new HA stack up in my beginning territories to consolidate that area more firmly.

[stupac]

When I use horse archers I use the steppe riders, and if I have acces the arosi riders. These are the horse archers which also have a lance that can get a pretty decent charge going. What I do is I charge say a phalanx unit from the back with one unit of my steppe riders, and when the phalanx unit turns around to meet the threat I unleash about 4 units to its back. The phalanx instantly breaks even the elite phalanx units. I dont use the horse archers which have a little dagger for melee the steppe riders when charging in numbers say 3 units and up break anything.

True, the riders have way better melee, but often the standard HA have way more arrows, so I still keep them around. For some reason the AI also seems to target my heavier calvary, and my standard, unarmored HA's make it out unscathed by missiles. I think in my Sauromatae campaign I had half a stack of standard HA's with gold chevrons towards the end.

These tips were very well thought out and I'm sure I'll have a blast with my new Saka campaign. Thanks again. Oh and one more thing Stupac. You get a for being such a big help. You earned it dude.

Hurrah, my first balloon. Because I'm super long winded once I get to thinking. Gracias.

[fenix3279]

^
No problem

Many of you seem to know a pretty good deal about these ancient nomadic cultures. I had a question I wanted to ask to all of you. Out of all the nomadic factions, which would you say were the most feared, infamous, or influential to the world? I heard many amazing things about the Skythians and how there military prowess bought them great riches. I heard a Pharoah once paid them tribute to keep them out of his lands. I'm also curious about the Parthians. It was said their composite bows were powerful enough to penetrate the hardy Roman scutum. I believe it was Tacitus who once spoke of them as being ghost and nigh impossible to catch. Even in the testudo formation, the Romans found no shelter from the deadly Parthian arrows as they soon became "nailed" to their own shields. I was also interested in the Sarmatians and Saka. I admit, I always though that Saka was just another Scythian tribe. Not an entirely different faction like in EB. If you know of any good sites about this sort of thing, feel free to bring them up. Voice your opinions too, if you want. I love learning more about ancient cultures so this is all cool to me.

[Parallel Pain]

True, the riders have way better melee, but often the standard HA have way more arrows, so I still keep them around. For some reason the AI also seems to target my heavier calvary, and my standard, unarmored HA's make it out unscathed by missiles. I think in my Sauromatae campaign I had half a stack of standard HA's with gold chevrons towards the end.

If I read the unit recruitment correctly both HA and riders have 40 shots.

Personally in my Saka Rauka campaign I found the charge more important during offensive battle and any battle on flat ground. Without elevation advantage arrows don't do much to the massive amounts of armored/elite phalanx the seleucids and ptolemy put on the field.

[Ibrahim]

^
No problem

Many of you seem to know a pretty good deal about these ancient nomadic cultures. I had a question I wanted to ask to all of you. Out of all the nomadic factions, which would you say were the most feared, infamous, or influential to the world? I heard many amazing things about the Skythians and how there military prowess bought them great riches. I heard a Pharoah once paid them tribute to keep them out of his lands. I'm also curious about the Parthians. It was said their composite bows were powerful enough to penetrate the hardy Roman scutum. I believe it was Tacitus who once spoke of them as being ghost and nigh impossible to catch. Even in the testudo formation, the Romans found no shelter from the deadly Parthian arrows as they soon became "nailed" to their own shields. I was also interested in the Sarmatians and Saka. I admit, I always though that Saka was just another Scythian tribe. Not an entirely different faction like in EB. If you know of any good sites about this sort of thing, feel free to bring them up. Voice your opinions too, if you want. I love learning more about ancient cultures so this is all cool to me.

the most feared nomad faction is not in EB.. (try ibfd)
but EB wise, pick pahlava, they ended up with a long lasting empire(if you call ~300 years long for a state)-they also wooped the AS and took most of their lands..

[stupac]

If I read the unit recruitment correctly both HA and riders have 40 shots.

Personally in my Saka Rauka campaign I found the charge more important during offensive battle and any battle on flat ground. Without elevation advantage arrows don't do much to the massive amounts of armored/elite phalanx the seleucids and ptolemy put on the field.

You are correct, hmm. Strange, I always seemed to run out of ammo with the riders and nobles before the standard HA's. Maybe it's my imagination, but I could swear they had more ammo. Ah well, I stand corrected, Parallel. I still find archery to be extremely effective (at least on medium difficulty on huge unit size) against lighter phalanxes and light infantry, which is usually extremely numerous early in the game. You are right, against armored units, arrows are next to worthless, still firing into their backs you can get a few casualties and more importantly, demoralize them.

[Midnj]

If they have archers either try to draw their archers out with a cheap horse archer unit enough to hit them with a multi-direction charge (you can only draw them out a bit.. but enough to create separation from regular troops so you can do this).

Alternately just send your fast cav in to charge/feint repeatedly so that the archers are never really firing, just skirmishing back and forth... then bring all your horse archers into range (a semi-circle around the enemy army works very well) ... their formation will start to break out and you will have isolated units going in all directions to hit with cav charges from multiple directions.. pretty much any levy or regular unit in EB will break when hit by a proper cav charge from two directions at once (and the cav has a decent charge rating) and you will do good damage on elites even if they may not break right away.

I generally find armies made up entirely of horse archers to be inferior to mixed cav armies of maybe 2/3rds horse archers and 1/3rd shock cavalry. With the latter you can actually kill the enemy army to the last man if the strategic situation calls for it (eg enemy is sieging your city, or is getting close to one) whereas with a total horse archer army you are relying on attrition only over a long period of time.

[Korlon]

I find it quite nice to just have about 1/4 or 1/3 extremely heavily armored horse archers with xyston secondary. Then the rest as many lancer horse archers as possible with a couple of those knife horse archers for the rest. If you're playing on regular RomeTW.exe, just stick the heavily armored in the front. The enemy will pretty much just target them with arrows and lead bullets.

Generally, no town of mine is garrisoned with horse archers. Horse archers are valuable for my main army. Usually spearmen and regular archers will be in those towns. If a town of horse archers was really besieged, just sally and hit them with arrows. If I remember right, even if you quit, it would just be considered a draw and you can do the same thing the next turn. But the cataphract horse archers would nicely take care of the the rest of the army just fine after you've expended all your arrows. Use the poorly armored lancer horse archers if necesssary. You won't get many casualties.

You hardly ever see large stacks of soldiers moving around in the eastern part of the map. Biggest stack that ever besieged me on my Pahlava campaign in 1.0 was probably around six units.

[Parallel Pain]

In my Saka campaign I have "regiments" of 3 riders and 1 armoredHA commanded by one family member. These regiments of all cavalry dot the map. 1 regiment is used to take out any rebel that appear. 2 is an army capable of taken on almost all AI armies, and when absolutely necessary I throw 4 together.

Saves money and saves time (all cavalry).
Also in early gain spys are a must. They warn you what attack's coming where so you can shift forces to match, allowing you to cover a wide front with minimum troops. I covered 4 border province with two regiments at my most outstretched times.

[Korlon]

Right, spies are very important, especially with cavalry only armies. With the weak garrisons of the eastern towns, you can usually make a town revolt with three spies or at least make it so that the gate opens 100% of the time allowing for easy sieges from horse archers.