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Thread: Roman Allied Legions

  1. #1
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Roman Allied Legions

    This mini mod adds Roman Allied Legions to EB in a very simple way:

    Update version 1.1

    http://files.filefront.com/Socii+Rom.../fileinfo.html

    Extract all files in your ...\EB\Data folder and let it overwrite the existing files.

    - Enabled factional recruitement in Taras and Rhegion
    - Disabled factional recruitement in Segesta
    - Replaced Camillan Hastati with Bruttian Infantry in all Roman starting provinces save Latium (Roma), plus Taras and Rhegion
    - Replaced Camillan Principes with Samnite Spearmen in all Roman starting provinces save Latium (Roma), plus Taras and Rhegion
    - Replaced Camillan Triarii with Samnitici Milites in all Roman starting provinces save Latium (Roma), plus Taras and Rhegion
    - Replaced Camillan Equites with Campanian cavalry in all Roman starting provinces save Latium (Roma), plus Taras and Rhegion
    - Moved Bruttian infantry to factional barracks in Taras and Rhegion
    - Disabled recruitement of Pedites and Equites Extraordinarii for Camillan times
    - Enabled recruitement of Pedites and Equites Extraordinarii for Polybian times in Roma only
    - Disabled recruitement of Hastati Samnitici and Campanian cavalry in Polybian times
    - Returned Greek regional recruitement in Taras in Rhegion to default
    - All Republican units, including Polybians, that are recruited outside Rome are now named after their home province!



    "Kopie von export_descr_buildings" is a backup and let you return to the original EB Roman recruitment.

    "export_descr_unit" makes the Bruttians respond in Latin instead of Greek and makes Republican units "named". Various map files assign the correct recruitment markers and names for the units. This change is compatible with the 1st Legion feature for post-Marian Legions (this download also fixes the broken 1st Legion feature as per EB 1.1).


    Gameplay effect: In the early periode you can recruite core Roman troops in Rome only. In the other Italian provinces you can recruite units that are very much the same, but still different. After the Polybian reforms your zone of recruitement is expanded to all of Italy plus "Gallia Togata". For houserule purposes the allied Legions are always labeled by their home province.


    CAN BE USED WITH SAVED GAMES!
    (Quit EB and start a new session to let the programm read the changed files) If you have any problems with the named Legions delete map.rwm (this download has a correct map.rwm anyways).


    Named allies:


    Bruttian Infantry:


    Samnite Spearmen:


    Samnite Milites


    Campanian cavalry


    Note that this an unoffical modding project. Please keep error reports to this thread, thank you
    Last edited by konny; 05-17-2008 at 17:30. Reason: Version 1.1

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  2. #2

    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Wow. This is fantastic. Once again, Sir, you outshine yourself.
    Finished Campaigns
    Lusotannan 0.8
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    Sab'yn 1.0
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    Long may the barbarians continue, I pray, if not to love us, at least to hate one another,seeing that, as fate bears remorselessly on the empire, fortune can offer no greater boon now than discord amoung our enemies - Tacitus

  3. #3

    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Cheers Konny! Do you know if this is uncompatible with any other mods?
    Only a few seek liberty; the majority seek nothing more than fair masters - Sallust

    A lie told often enough becomes truth - Vladimir Lenin

  4. #4
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by Horst Nordfink
    Cheers Konny! Do you know if this is uncompatible with any other mods?
    The changes are in EDB. When you play a mod that uses an altered EDB for EB 1.1 it is not compatible. In EDU the only change is the voice of the Pezoi Brettioi from a Greek one (I think, "heavy_1") to a Latin one (I think, "general_1"). This is not really needed, I did so to prevent the Roman Allies from shouting around in Greek. You can use this mod by just replacing EDB with any mod with changed EDU, and either leave the Brutti voice as it is or do the simple change yourself by copping the voice line from the entry of the Roman Hastati (for example) into the Brutti entry.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  5. #5
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    That's pretty nifty! My only concern from a gameplay perspective is that with Roma alone as your source of proper Roman troops, it may slow the recruitment of a consular army by quite a lot. I'd be tempted to allow Capua as well as Roma to recruit Roman troops, given the presence of the barracks there.

    I have to say classical hoplites for triarii is a neat little move I didn't even think of. Although unlike triarii you can't halve the size of their maniple in the EDU because other factions use them.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; 04-14-2008 at 13:42.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  6. #6

    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    This is exactly what I wanted! Thanks very much konny - you're a hero! Award yourself a triumph!
    Last edited by Titus Marcellus Scato; 04-14-2008 at 14:11.

  7. #7
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
    That's pretty nifty! My only concern from a gameplay perspective is that with Roma alone as your source of proper Roman troops, it may slow the recruitment of a consular army by quite a lot. I'd be tempted to allow Capua as well as Roma to recruit Roman troops, given the presence of the barracks there.
    I don't think so (haven't tested it in the long run so far). You need two Consular armies with 1/2 Roman troops and 1/2 allied. You start the game with the equivalent to two Roman Legions and have to raise the same number in Rome to get your Romans for both Consular armies and then raise the four Legions allies.

    If you like to expand the recruitement for Romans, I would suggest Segesta because I think the "Romans" there are settlers not native Italians.

    I have to say classical hoplites for triarii is a neat little move I didn't even think of. Although unlike triarii you can't halve the size of their maniple in the EDU because other factions use them.
    Don't do it, Camillan Triarii come in the same number as Hastati or Principes.

    Example for a Consular army:

    1x Levels
    1x Accensi
    2x Hastati
    2x Principes
    2x Triarii
    1x Equites Romani / or Consulares

    +

    1x Akontistai
    1x Toxotai
    2x Brutti
    2x Samniti
    2x Hoplitai
    1x Equites Campanici / or Extraordanrii

    +

    1x Pedites Extraordinarii
    1x General

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  8. #8

    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    hi konny.
    thanks a lot for this overwaited minimod.
    as a samnite-roots player, you made me an happy man.
    questions:
    1) i downloaded all the files , and extracted them into Data folder, excpet 'kopie von konny...' , because i read that this is simply a backup. do i need to put it also into Data folder?

    2) i started the game, and in the cities there are samnite spearmen and bruttian infantry, but no Classical Hoplites: does it depend on he level of the towns?

    3) i put a look into export-descr_unit.txt, and there isn't any sign of Classical Hoplites in the lists of EB Roman units , nor EB Italic units . i know that those hoplites are a copy of Greek Classical Hoplites (card/unit number ;333). is it correct this? shouldn't the new unit be into the group of their 'owners' ?
    thank you again.

    belliger
    Nec sine Marsis nec contra Marsos triumphari posse
    (Appiano)

  9. #9
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by belliger
    1) i downloaded all the files , and extracted them into Data folder, excpet 'kopie von konny...' , because i read that this is simply a backup. do i need to put it also into Data folder?
    You can store it where ever you like. It is neither needed nor recognized by the programm.

    2) i started the game, and in the cities there are samnite spearmen and bruttian infantry, but no Classical Hoplites: does it depend on he level of the towns?
    The Hoplites appear where you can recruite Camillan Triarii in the original EB 1.1. Please note that Triarii a.) need a higher level of barracks than Hastati and b.) their recruitemen was reduced to 4 (out of 6) towns in EB 1.1 to prevent the AI from spamming it a bit.

    3) i put a look into export-descr_unit.txt, and there isn't any sign of Classical Hoplites in the lists of EB Roman units , nor EB Italic units . i know that those hoplites are a copy of Greek Classical Hoplites (card/unit number ;333). is it correct this? shouldn't the new unit be into the group of their 'owners' ?
    thank you again
    These are the Hoplites that the Romans can raise from local barracks elsewhere. I have just transferred them to the factional barracks in these Italian towns, so no problem should come up with them.

    PS: got your mail, I take it that the question was allready answered in the other thread?

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  10. #10

    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    thanks for the quick answer.
    about
    PS: got your mail, I take it that the question was allready answered in the other thread?
    can you readdress me hwere is it? tried with the 'search' toggle, but with no results...
    Nec sine Marsis nec contra Marsos triumphari posse
    (Appiano)

  11. #11
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Roman Allied Legions


    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  12. #12
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by konny
    Thank you.

    I don't think so (haven't tested it in the long run so far). You need two Consular armies with 1/2 Roman troops and 1/2 allied. You start the game with the equivalent to two Roman Legions and have to raise the same number in Rome to get your Romans for both Consular armies and then raise the four Legions allies.

    If you like to expand the recruitement for Romans, I would suggest Segesta because I think the "Romans" there are settlers not native Italians.
    I'm just thinking in terms of rebuilding an army, you've got some 9 units to recruit from Roma alone, whereas the remainder have a range of places they can come from.

    Quote Originally Posted by konny
    Don't do it, Camillan Triarii come in the same number as Hastati or Principes.
    Really? I wasn't aware they were any different from Polybian triarii, in terms of having maniples half the size of those of the hastati and principes.

    Quote Originally Posted by konny
    Example for a Consular army:

    1x Levels
    1x Accensi
    2x Hastati
    2x Principes
    2x Triarii
    1x Equites Romani / or Consulares

    +

    1x Akontistai
    1x Toxotai
    2x Brutti
    2x Samniti
    2x Hoplitai
    1x Equites Campanici / or Extraordanrii

    +

    1x Pedites Extraordinarii
    1x General
    Thing that worries me is that's an even bigger stack, particularly with the pedites extraordinarii not counting towards the allied total. I've had really bad experiences with the AI when it comes to moving a big stack around - they won't fight me. Even when I allow them time to gather their little armies into one big one.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  13. #13
    Member Member Reno Melitensis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Thanks Konny, a very useful mini mod for all Romanii fans. Downloaded.

    Cheers.


  14. #14
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
    I'm just thinking in terms of rebuilding an army, you've got some 9 units to recruit from Roma alone, whereas the remainder have a range of places they can come from.
    6 (2x Hastati, 2x Principes, 2xTriarii). The recruitement of the other units was not touched. If you don't get completly butchered every single battle you should have no problems to keep your Romans in numbers with merging and retraining.


    Really? I wasn't aware they were any different from Polybian triarii, in terms of having maniples half the size of those of the hastati and principes.
    They were organized in 5 ordi of three (full) maniples (about 180 men each).

    Thing that worries me is that's an even bigger stack, particularly with the pedites extraordinarii not counting towards the allied total. I've had really bad experiences with the AI when it comes to moving a big stack around - they won't fight me. Even when I allow them time to gather their little armies into one big one.
    That's the standard force given to Consul on campaign. During operations the actual size of the army will be smaller of course: splitting of forces to hunt down smaller enemy armies, garrisons that have to be left behind, casulties that were not replaced etcpp.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

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    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by konny
    6 (2x Hastati, 2x Principes, 2xTriarii). The recruitement of the other units was not touched. If you don't get completly butchered every single battle you should have no problems to keep your Romans in numbers with merging and retraining.
    Ah, that's a little more manageable if it's only your line infantry, not the lights. But still if you lost a whole army, that's a year and a half to restore your Roman infantry core. At least if Capua could also recruit Roman ones that would be three seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by konny
    They were organized in 5 ordi of three (full) maniples (about 180 men each).
    So they should be full-sized just like the hastati and principes in a Camillian army? I think I'll have to go back and re-edit my EDU then.

    Quote Originally Posted by konny
    That's the standard force given to Consul on campaign. During operations the actual size of the army will be smaller of course: splitting of forces to hunt down smaller enemy armies, garrisons that have to be left behind, casulties that were not replaced etcpp.
    I don't tend to split mine much, what is brilliantly effective whole seems useless in half. Possibly because it's too narrow and deep. Although it would give my tribunes some actual command experience.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  16. #16
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius
    So they should be full-sized just like the hastati and principes in a Camillian army? I think I'll have to go back and re-edit my EDU then.
    Yep. Then they perfectly fit to the Hoplites in this mod too.


    I don't tend to split mine much, what is brilliantly effective whole seems useless in half. Possibly because it's too narrow and deep. Although it would give my tribunes some actual command experience.
    As a typical detachement I use a Tribune, the two units Extraordinarii, a missle unit and may be one of the Triarii, plus one or two units Avxilia (dependening on the task).

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

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    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by konny
    As a typical detachement I use a Tribune, the two units Extraordinarii, a missle unit and may be one of the Triarii, plus one or two units Avxilia (dependening on the task).
    That's a lot of trust being put into the young tribune, the general giving away his extraordinarii!
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  18. #18
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Roman Allied Legions

    Yes, Extraordinarii should always stay with the Consul. On the other, these are the units that wouldn't be desperatly missing when the main army deploys for battle because the Pedites Extraordinarii are something like the Libero in old fashioned football and the Triarii only have to fight on rare occasions. More problematic is that the detachement would hold half the army's cavalry.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  19. #19
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Roman Allied Legions

    Ariminium should have roman units I think. It is a roman founded colony.

  20. #20
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros
    Ariminium should have roman units I think. It is a roman founded colony.
    Although technically it wasn't founded until 269BC.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  21. #21
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Re: AW: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by Moros
    Ariminium should have roman units I think. It is a roman founded colony.
    Good point. The entire province was in fact more Romanized former Celtic lands than Italian homeland in 272. In EB 1.1 there isn't even a governement set up for this province on game start. I am not realy happy with the Italian allied units in Segesta as well.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  22. #22

    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    I have a question and a suggestion. Is this compatible with the city mod and TWFanatic's hoplite, chariot, and elephant mod? And my suggestion is that Capua and Roma should be able to recruit Roman troops as those were the only cities at the time with Roman citizenship.
    Last edited by Fish-got-a-Sniper; 04-24-2008 at 23:43.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Excellent minimod, Konny. If I were to rate it out of 5, I would give it full points.
    "I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." -Hamlet, II, ii

    "Historians and others attempt to pin the tail on the reluctant monkey of change." -excerpt from a real college essay, from Ignorance is Blitz by Anders Henriksson

  24. #24
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default AW: Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish-got-a-Sniper
    I have a question and a suggestion. Is this compatible with the city mod TWFanatic's hoplite, chariot, and elephant mod?
    Don't use the changed "export_descr_unit" of this mod then it should work.

    And my suggestion is that Capua and Roma should be able to recruit Roman troops as those were the only cities at the time with Roman citizenship.
    For the sake of gameplay Capua should only field "allied" Legions. This isn't so much a question of citizen status but what the soldiers from there would have looked like/were equipped like.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  25. #25
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    After playing with this mini-mod into the Polybians, I am not happy with some things:

    - The Hoplites are a more poorer choice, because they somehow do not really fit into an "Italian" army. That is in particular after conquering the first Greek settlements on Sicily where you can recruite them generic.

    - Samnitici Milites "do not happen". May be useing them instead of Hoplites as Triarii replacement is worth trying.

    - Equites Romani should only be recruiteable where Roman infantry is recruitable. That is in Rome. All other settlements should field either/both of Campanici and Extraordinarii

    - Segesta should not be able to field Italian Allies, either Roman units or Ligurians and Gauls instead (no factional recruitement during Camillan times).

    - Having Italian Allies beeing recruiteable from regional barracks in Taras and Rhegion is not good in the long run because they remain to be so throughout the game, even in the Marian and Imperial periode. May be making factional recruitement possible down there for the Camillan periode and move the Italian units to these barracks would be better.

    Having Romans from Rome only worked fine and I had good 50:50 balance in the overall army using houserules.
    Last edited by konny; 04-25-2008 at 16:09.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  26. #26
    Member Member Reno Melitensis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    The problem with the Hoplite units is that there is not a single unit that can represent Italian heavy spearman in line with the Triari, and as you said, they dont fit in an Italian Army, they should have Apullian-Corinthian helmets or Attic style, like the Samnites. The Samnites Milites can be a great unit if introduced in the Roman recrutement pool. The Hastati Samnitici should be the first line of the allies in the manipular formation, followed by the Bruttians and Hastati Milites, and why not the Lucanians. According to Polybius, during the Gallic invasion of 222BCE, they where among the allies that send warriors to Rome. Thorlof's Reign of Ares had some Etruscan and Lucan Hoplites, sadly he seem to have stopped posting here, we would have asked him to lend us his skins.

    And I would like to suggest you to replace the Hippies in Taras and Rhegion with the Tarantine cavalry, they can add some flavour to the allied cavalry contingent.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Reno Melitensis; 04-25-2008 at 18:43.


  27. #27
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Yes the EB Hoplites are to perfectly Greek to represent Italians. The Samnitici Milites would be excellent as would be the Extraordanrii - save for the fact that they use the Kopis instead of a Spear. I was thinking of the Leukani too, to replace the Rorarii in the Allied forces. They are a unit that can represent any Italian light spearmen, may be save for the Linothorax what was of course neither unkown nor unused in Italy, but not so common.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  28. #28
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Should those Lucanian light infantry be made recruitable in Rhegion? Or are they only part of the mercenary pool?
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  29. #29
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    They are recruitable for other factions in the South. Rome only has them as mercs now.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  30. #30
    Member Member Darth Stalin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roman Allied Legions

    Well, the idea is quite nice, though I wouldn't go as far as Konny did.
    For me the Bruttians and Lukanians should be recruitable for Rome in her faction barracks during both Camillan and Polybian period; yet without restricting the AOR of "basic Roman units" like Hastati, Principes and Triarii.

    We should bear in mind, taht during the period in which EB starts, the central Italy (Roman starting provinces) has been quite deeply romanized and filled with many Roman colonies, providing recruits organized along Roman lines. Regional troops should be available in regions that are to be conquered just after Pyrrhus has left Italy, i.e. southern Italy - Lucania, Bruttiom, Greek cities-colonies of Magna Graecia. However, I think that the recruitment has been quite well modelled in current EB due to government tree and barracks tree => i.e. when someone installs in Rhegium and Taras the "Homeland" at once it means that these areas has joined the Roman federation on far worse terms than those conquered before, and with heavy Roman colonisation of veterans - thus with heavy percentage of Roman units, with very litttle local units available (Samnites, Bruttians etc.).
    On the other hand, removing the ability to recruit Camillan troops from newly conquered areas (Cisalpine Gaul and Southern Italy) is IMHO not as bad idea as it may seem => the Camillan Era has ended probably even before the start of EB timeframe, so the player should wait for appearance of new generation units - the Polybians.
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