occupy / expel / enlave ?

[spqr_arcani]

Hi,

What exactly does expel do?
I don't remember the explanation on the button verbatim, but
it was something like

"expel X people to to governed settlements"

What governed settlements? Mine? Or the AI's?

The "enslave" part is kind of a mix of the vanilla RTW's enslave
with the loot from exterminate. It was easy to notice the effects.

Is there still an exterminate option available later in the game?

[lobf]

They just renamed Occupy, Enslave, Exterminate. They all occupy the same boxes and do the same things.

[spqr_arcani]

They just renamed Occupy, Enslave, Exterminate. They all occupy the same boxes and do the same things.

Hi lobf,

Thanks for the reply.
Are you one of the developers?

I noticed that after I did "enslave", which is the old exterminate,
that there were some shackle icons in neighboring cities. One thing
I can't remember for sure is if I had done an "expel" earlier. That's why I was under the impression that expel and enslave are entirely different for EB 1.1.

[Tellos Athenaios]

lobf is not on the team.

[lobf]

Don't listen to him. I am the team.

[cmacq]

Did you say, we are the team?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTG8...eature=related

or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgLV...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EwvjYx-UVI

and of course...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knYB...eature=related

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

To answer the question.
Occupy takes the town and the entire population. Expel takes a portion of the population and sends it to other town that you own. Enslave makes a large portion of the population disappear.

[mini]

They disappear?

So your general takes one big red curtain, yells allakazam and a small smoke poof appears and zzzing... they're gone?

Eat your heart out David Copperfield.

[General Appo]

Hmmm... the slave dealers must be making a fortune in my Baktrian campaign then, I must have Enslaved about 15 large cities.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

They disappear as far as the game is concerned. It implies that they are sold as slaves all over your empire and no longer count toward population numbers anywhere.

[mini]

i know MAA

I'm just a little sarcastic due to early morning first day of work etc :p

[skuzzy]

Regarding the new renaming and such since there is essentially no "exterminate" per se I think the Butcher trait should be muffled by a lower probability since everytime I want Enslave I'm effectively killing all of them and acquiring the trait almost immediately.

[Ibrahim]

Did you say, we are the team?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTG8...eature=related

or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgLV...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EwvjYx-UVI

and of course...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knYB...eature=related

cmaq you retard!!
that was a crappy scene-looks so fake...

[cmacq]

Sorry, I don't respond well to praise.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

To answer the question.
Occupy takes the town and the entire population. Expel takes a portion of the population and sends it to other town that you own. Enslave makes a large portion of the population disappear.

This makes a great deal of sense.

Since the town populations in EB don't represent the total population of the town, but only that small portion of the population which is eligible for military service.

Slaves are obviously not eligible for military service (only an idiot would hand weapons to slaves!) so shouldn't be counted as part of the population figure.

[Ibrahim]

note the 4-5 laughing faces-it's no real offence, though the scene looks so fake (I wonder..did god punish swayze for it?)

[Korlon]

Mmm, I believe gladiators were handed weapons...

[Jolt]

They disappear?

So your general takes one big red curtain, yells allakazam and a small smoke poof appears and zzzing... they're gone?

Eat your heart out David Copperfield.

And it ain't just one person. It's freaking hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands

[hoom]

I like this change, I never wanted to do Exterminate, its really harsh

Now I can at least keep those people alive.

Also this explains why when I did Enslave in 1.0 there were little villages saying the population was temporarily hanging out nearby having been expelled from the city.

[Torvus]

Mmm, I believe gladiators were handed weapons...

Gladiators weren't always slaves.

[V.T. Marvin]

I like this change, I never wanted to do Exterminate, its really harsh

Now I can at least keep those people alive.

Well, the EB 1.1. "enslavement" is pretty brutal too - note the smoke coming out of the town, and the message showing a valley of corpses (a march of death maybe...) accompanied by that horrible sound of slaughter... It does not exactly make this option any more comfortable

Anyway, thanks to the EB Team for this change, it puts the options much mor into line with their effect in the game.

[Nachtmeister]

Hi everyone,

although probably the new "labels" on the three types of occupation will help minors to convince their parents that eb is not as brutal as history would suggest, IMHO it should be included with the modesty patch and not with the standard installation.
It must be less historically accurate - take rome's conquest of Kart Hadast at the end of the third punic war for example: the city was actually leveled.
Maybe they enslaved some of the populace, but they could not have transported them all...
Also, when I take bithynia (pontos campaign) with a hellenic general and "enslave" the population, I get a -5 influence and a new trait "slaughtered own people".
And somehow the new labels just "don't seem right" to me - but apart from this overall minor issue, GREAT job EB-team!

[bovi]

It is meant to better represent the actual effects in the game, which we can't change.

[General Appo]

It must be less historically accurate - take rome's conquest of Kart Hadast at the end of the third punic war for example: the city was actually leveled.
Maybe they enslaved some of the populace, but they could not have transported them all...

Well actually, once the city surrendered everyone was sold into slavery, except a few high-ranking families that remained in the citadel. The only real examples I can think of in EB´s timeframe where most of the people were killed after the conquest of a city is New Carthage by Africanus forces. Even during Ceasars worst slaughters more Gauls were enslaved then actually killed.

[hoom]

Or more properly, once Carthage surrendered all their weapons without a fight, they were told they were to leave the city and resettle somewhere 10miles inland & weren't allowed to build walls or weapons.
They refused this & re-armed for a fight to the death.
Then when Scipio eventually managed to get into the city, the majority of the city was killed but still 30000+ were sold into slavery.

So in EB/RTW engine terms we have:
First Carthage was caught with their pants down and taken ungarrisoned by a naval invasion.
The Romans selected Expel but unrest was so high that the occupying Roman garrison was ejected on the next turn & Carthage reasserted its sovereignty.
The Roman army was reinforced & siege re-initiated, with the city falling victim of an Enslave after a several year long siege (during which the captain of the backup stack distinguished himself in several battles in the hinterland, resulting in him being adopted and raised to commander of the sieging stack).

[Nachtmeister]

... I stand partially corrected.
Kart Hadast population must have been ~700.000 =>siege/maybe 200.000 starve to death although that would have likely prompted a final unconditional surrender or an attack in spite of the odds => roman assault => 50.000 (roughly 7% of original population) survive the fighting inside of the city walls and are enslaved...
Still, the six days it took the romans to kill most inhabitants of Kart Hadast in terms of RTW are about as long as it takes me in real-time to "push the button".
Say, the ones killed were those not eligible for military service as it was put earlier on in this thread by Titus Marcellus Scato, meaning you have an average of 13 slaves owned by every citizen... I can't find any sources mentioning the balance between slaves and citizens in ancient societies on the web but it does sound reasonable if Kart Hadast had extensive mines and/or "large agricultural estates"(which they would have needed to sustain such a high population). But it does not account for the fact that they fought the romans - motivation would have been slavery to roman masters or charge against the romans with makeshift arms (if any) to gain - continued slavery to Karthadastim masters or death... Then again, it is not entirely improbable that the roman legions did not loot the conquered parts of the city for as long as resisting forces were not entirely subdued... If they did not then the slaughter would have been equivalent to a battle for a city with it's entire garrison manned with apeleutheroi. Yes, perhaps the Karthadastim freed the slaves to make them fight. Except that usually the civilian population of cities in RTW is much larger than even a full garrison of units with a high body-count (by the time it takes to amass the coin to recruit such a garrison) so shrinking it to SEVEN percent of its original number is not possible in RTW by siege and subsequent battle.
The course hoom mentions seems quite reasonable - so whether or not we are talking about genocide here appears to be disputable...

-quoting wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...ntiquity&go=Go

Scholars of antiquity differentiate between gendercide in which males were killed, but the children (particularly the girls) and women were incorporated into the conqueror's society, Jones notes that "Chalk and Jonassohn provide a wide-ranging selection of historical events such as the Assyrian Empire’s root-and branch depredations in the first half of the first millennium BCE, and the destruction of Melos by Athens during the Peloponnesian War (fifth century BCE), a gendercidal rampage described by Thucydides in his 'Melian Dialogue'."[9]
[...]
Ben Kiernan, a Yale scholar, has labeled the destruction of Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War (149–146 BC) "The First Genocide".

-end quote

I still think that there should be an "exterminate"-option upon conquest; not wanting to impose it on every player of -edit- [BI]=>EB -end edit- I'll instead ask how I can *manually* re-label the button and it's corresponding menu pop-up after installation in the appropriate thread