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Thread: occupy / expel / enlave ?

  1. #1

    Default occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Hi,

    What exactly does expel do?
    I don't remember the explanation on the button verbatim, but
    it was something like

    "expel X people to to governed settlements"

    What governed settlements? Mine? Or the AI's?

    The "enslave" part is kind of a mix of the vanilla RTW's enslave
    with the loot from exterminate. It was easy to notice the effects.

    Is there still an exterminate option available later in the game?

  2. #2
    Jesus Member lobf's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    They just renamed Occupy, Enslave, Exterminate. They all occupy the same boxes and do the same things.

  3. #3

    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Quote Originally Posted by lobf
    They just renamed Occupy, Enslave, Exterminate. They all occupy the same boxes and do the same things.
    Hi lobf,

    Thanks for the reply.
    Are you one of the developers?

    I noticed that after I did "enslave", which is the old exterminate,
    that there were some shackle icons in neighboring cities. One thing
    I can't remember for sure is if I had done an "expel" earlier. That's why I was under the impression that expel and enslave are entirely different for EB 1.1.

  4. #4

    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    lobf is not on the team.
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  5. #5
    Jesus Member lobf's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Don't listen to him. I am the team.

  6. #6
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Last edited by cmacq; 04-14-2008 at 07:05.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

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    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    To answer the question.
    Occupy takes the town and the entire population. Expel takes a portion of the population and sends it to other town that you own. Enslave makes a large portion of the population disappear.


  8. #8
    ETW Steam: Little Fox Member mini's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    They disappear?

    So your general takes one big red curtain, yells allakazam and a small smoke poof appears and zzzing... they're gone?

    Eat your heart out David Copperfield.

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    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Hmmm... the slave dealers must be making a fortune in my Baktrian campaign then, I must have Enslaved about 15 large cities.
    The Appomination

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    EB TRIBVNVS PLEBIS Member MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    They disappear as far as the game is concerned. It implies that they are sold as slaves all over your empire and no longer count toward population numbers anywhere.
    Last edited by MarcusAureliusAntoninus; 04-14-2008 at 08:13.


  11. #11
    ETW Steam: Little Fox Member mini's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    i know MAA

    I'm just a little sarcastic due to early morning first day of work etc :p

  12. #12

    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Regarding the new renaming and such since there is essentially no "exterminate" per se I think the Butcher trait should be muffled by a lower probability since everytime I want Enslave I'm effectively killing all of them and acquiring the trait almost immediately.
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    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    cmaq you retard!!
    that was a crappy scene-looks so fake...
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

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  14. #14
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Sorry, I don't respond well to praise.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  15. #15

    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus
    To answer the question.
    Occupy takes the town and the entire population. Expel takes a portion of the population and sends it to other town that you own. Enslave makes a large portion of the population disappear.
    This makes a great deal of sense.

    Since the town populations in EB don't represent the total population of the town, but only that small portion of the population which is eligible for military service.

    Slaves are obviously not eligible for military service (only an idiot would hand weapons to slaves!) so shouldn't be counted as part of the population figure.

  16. #16
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Wink Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    note the 4-5 laughing faces-it's no real offence, though the scene looks so fake (I wonder..did god punish swayze for it?)
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

    tired of ridiculous trouble with walking animations? then you need my brand newmotion capture for the common man!

    "We have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if we put the belonging to, in the I don't know what, all gas lines will explode " -alBernameg

  17. #17
    The Rabbit Nibbler Member Korlon's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Mmm, I believe gladiators were handed weapons...
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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mini
    They disappear?

    So your general takes one big red curtain, yells allakazam and a small smoke poof appears and zzzing... they're gone?

    Eat your heart out David Copperfield.
    And it ain't just one person. It's freaking hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands
    BLARGH!

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    Member Member hoom's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    I like this change, I never wanted to do Exterminate, its really harsh

    Now I can at least keep those people alive.

    Also this explains why when I did Enslave in 1.0 there were little villages saying the population was temporarily hanging out nearby having been expelled from the city.
    maybe those guys should be doing something more useful...

  20. #20
    Descendant of great Herakles Member Torvus's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korlon
    Mmm, I believe gladiators were handed weapons...
    Gladiators weren't always slaves.

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  21. #21
    EBII Bricklayer Member V.T. Marvin's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoom
    I like this change, I never wanted to do Exterminate, its really harsh

    Now I can at least keep those people alive.
    Well, the EB 1.1. "enslavement" is pretty brutal too - note the smoke coming out of the town, and the message showing a valley of corpses (a march of death maybe...) accompanied by that horrible sound of slaughter... It does not exactly make this option any more comfortable

    Anyway, thanks to the EB Team for this change, it puts the options much mor into line with their effect in the game.

  22. #22
    Member Member Nachtmeister's Avatar
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    Question Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Hi everyone,

    although probably the new "labels" on the three types of occupation will help minors to convince their parents that eb is not as brutal as history would suggest, IMHO it should be included with the modesty patch and not with the standard installation.
    It must be less historically accurate - take rome's conquest of Kart Hadast at the end of the third punic war for example: the city was actually leveled.
    Maybe they enslaved some of the populace, but they could not have transported them all...
    Also, when I take bithynia (pontos campaign) with a hellenic general and "enslave" the population, I get a -5 influence and a new trait "slaughtered own people".
    And somehow the new labels just "don't seem right" to me - but apart from this overall minor issue, GREAT job EB-team!

    I am honoured to have been presented with my first baloons - - by Ibrahim for tactical observations
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  23. #23
    EB annoying hornet Member bovi's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    It is meant to better represent the actual effects in the game, which we can't change.

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  24. #24
    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtmeister
    It must be less historically accurate - take rome's conquest of Kart Hadast at the end of the third punic war for example: the city was actually leveled.
    Maybe they enslaved some of the populace, but they could not have transported them all...
    Well actually, once the city surrendered everyone was sold into slavery, except a few high-ranking families that remained in the citadel. The only real examples I can think of in EB´s timeframe where most of the people were killed after the conquest of a city is New Carthage by Africanus forces. Even during Ceasars worst slaughters more Gauls were enslaved then actually killed.
    The Appomination

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  25. #25
    Member Member hoom's Avatar
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    Default Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    Or more properly, once Carthage surrendered all their weapons without a fight, they were told they were to leave the city and resettle somewhere 10miles inland & weren't allowed to build walls or weapons.
    They refused this & re-armed for a fight to the death.
    Then when Scipio eventually managed to get into the city, the majority of the city was killed but still 30000+ were sold into slavery.

    So in EB/RTW engine terms we have:
    First Carthage was caught with their pants down and taken ungarrisoned by a naval invasion.
    The Romans selected Expel but unrest was so high that the occupying Roman garrison was ejected on the next turn & Carthage reasserted its sovereignty.
    The Roman army was reinforced & siege re-initiated, with the city falling victim of an Enslave after a several year long siege (during which the captain of the backup stack distinguished himself in several battles in the hinterland, resulting in him being adopted and raised to commander of the sieging stack).
    maybe those guys should be doing something more useful...

  26. #26
    Member Member Nachtmeister's Avatar
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    Arrow Re: occupy / expel / enlave ?

    ... I stand partially corrected.
    Kart Hadast population must have been ~700.000 =>siege/maybe 200.000 starve to death although that would have likely prompted a final unconditional surrender or an attack in spite of the odds => roman assault => 50.000 (roughly 7% of original population) survive the fighting inside of the city walls and are enslaved...
    Still, the six days it took the romans to kill most inhabitants of Kart Hadast in terms of RTW are about as long as it takes me in real-time to "push the button".
    Say, the ones killed were those not eligible for military service as it was put earlier on in this thread by Titus Marcellus Scato, meaning you have an average of 13 slaves owned by every citizen... I can't find any sources mentioning the balance between slaves and citizens in ancient societies on the web but it does sound reasonable if Kart Hadast had extensive mines and/or "large agricultural estates"(which they would have needed to sustain such a high population). But it does not account for the fact that they fought the romans - motivation would have been slavery to roman masters or charge against the romans with makeshift arms (if any) to gain - continued slavery to Karthadastim masters or death... Then again, it is not entirely improbable that the roman legions did not loot the conquered parts of the city for as long as resisting forces were not entirely subdued... If they did not then the slaughter would have been equivalent to a battle for a city with it's entire garrison manned with apeleutheroi. Yes, perhaps the Karthadastim freed the slaves to make them fight. Except that usually the civilian population of cities in RTW is much larger than even a full garrison of units with a high body-count (by the time it takes to amass the coin to recruit such a garrison) so shrinking it to SEVEN percent of its original number is not possible in RTW by siege and subsequent battle.
    The course hoom mentions seems quite reasonable - so whether or not we are talking about genocide here appears to be disputable...

    -quoting wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...ntiquity&go=Go

    Scholars of antiquity differentiate between gendercide in which males were killed, but the children (particularly the girls) and women were incorporated into the conqueror's society, Jones notes that "Chalk and Jonassohn provide a wide-ranging selection of historical events such as the Assyrian Empire’s root-and branch depredations in the first half of the first millennium BCE, and the destruction of Melos by Athens during the Peloponnesian War (fifth century BCE), a gendercidal rampage described by Thucydides in his 'Melian Dialogue'."[9]
    [...]
    Ben Kiernan, a Yale scholar, has labeled the destruction of Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War (149–146 BC) "The First Genocide".

    -end quote

    I still think that there should be an "exterminate"-option upon conquest; not wanting to impose it on every player of -edit- [BI]=>EB -end edit- I'll instead ask how I can *manually* re-label the button and it's corresponding menu pop-up after installation in the appropriate thread
    Last edited by Nachtmeister; 04-20-2008 at 15:49.

    I am honoured to have been presented with my first baloons - - by Ibrahim for tactical observations
    and with my second balloon by Christopher Burgoyne for physical elaboration on the advantages conferred by the Kontos over the Xyston.

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