Romano-Turkish Peace Talks: BC Hotseat IC thread

[phonicsmonkey]

**Please do not post in this thread unless you are invited by the Caliph to participate in the peace talks.**

War has been raging in Anatolia between the Eastern Roman Empire and the Turkish Sultanate since the Romans attacked the Kingdom of Armenia, triggering a mutual defence treaty signed between the Turks and the Armenians.

Since that fateful day many brave souls have died on the field of battle, including the Turkish Sultan Kilij Arslan, and some Anatolian cities have changed hands more than once, leaving their populations bereft and destitute.

Sensing that fatigue has set in on both sides, and in the knowledge that initial (and so far fruitless) peace talks have been held between the warring factions, the Abbasid Caliph An-Nasir (known as the Peacemaker due to his success in brokering peace deals between the Seljuks and Georgians, and later between the Ghorids and the Solanki Rajputs) has invited the representatives of Basileos Manuel and the new Sultan Kaikosru to an anteroom off the main Court chamber at his palace in Baghdad.

Here he will attempt to mediate between the two sides with the aim of securing a peace treaty that will bring an end to the suffering of the peoples of Anatolia.

Since the Armenians have been restored to their holdings in Cilicia, and the Kingdom of Jerusalem has publicly forsworn any interest in the region, the representatives of those two nations have not been invited to the talks at this time.

The Georgians, having only entered the war very recently at the behest of the Turkish Sultan, and without any deployment so far, have similarly been excluded.

At the request and with the consent of the primary parties, those nations (and any others whose views are deemed to be relevant) may be invited to join in the talks at a later time.

The Caliph enters the chamber and finds the Turkish and Roman delegations present, scowling at one another across the inlaid mosaic table.

Brothers and friends, I thank you for heeding my call to meet here and begin on the long road towards peace.

I understand that initial negotiations have already begun in private with an offer from the Romans, and a counter-offer by the Turks.

For the benefit of the public record, would it suit the two delegations to repeat those offers in their essentials, each in turn (Romans first) and without further comment for the time being, so that we might understand our starting point?

[The Lemongate]

The Roman head-delegate stands up, bows to the Caliph and begins his speech:

Honorable Caliph, delegate of the Turkish Sultanate, considering how the events of the war have unfolded up to date to the best knowledge of Rome and with our most sincere intentions to find a lasting peace, here is what we have offered to the Turks (with additional precision), along with provisions for the Armenians and the Georgians:

The Empire requires, to be recognized by all parties, sovereignty on the following settlements: Konstantinopolis, Nikomedeia, Nikeia, Smyrna, Laodikeia, Attaleia, Herakleia, Sinope, Trapezon, Ikonion, Theodosiopolis (Erzurum), Seleukeia, Rhodos, Iraklion, Nikoseia, Ammoxostos and all of Krimeia. We also require sovereignty over all Cilicia.

In exchange, we are willing to compensate the Armenian state by paying for all its resettlement costs for the next 10 years (20 turns). The amount would be fixed by them and could be linked to the number of settlements they would possess which should roughly number 3 or 4. A tentative amount could be of around 1000 to 2000 per settlement at every solstice (turn).

As we understand the Turkish Sultanate has amassed an important debt while Rome incurred little costs and since Rome has scored important victories, we would be willing to help the Sultanate rebuild its economy by helping it repay its war debts which we understand to be around 15,000 silver pieces. This could be done over at most a 2 year period.

As for Georgia, we will pardon its aggression towards Rome should they return any land they conquered.

All parties involved would as well agree to demilitarize common borders with no more then 4 units per settlements with exceptions if deemed necessary.

As was discussed with the Sultanate, Rome is ready to loan some specific settlements to the Sultanate, even at no cost, for limited periods of time, should the Sultanate require them for specific purposes such as readying a navy (though we note the Sultanate has access to the sea through Amasseia).

[phonicsmonkey]

The Caliph notes that the Romans make demands and proposals concerning Armenia, a nation which is not represented at these talks.

We will wait for the counter-offer from the Turkish delegation, and if the proposals regarding the territories of Cilicia and the relocation of the Armenian Kingdom remain on the table, the Caliph will invite the representatives of the Armenian King to join the talks.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The Turks make public their peace terms, which have been updated. (some of the terms are no longer relevant)

1. 15,000 florins, as the Romans agree, for two turns, as reparations for the damage caused by this war already.

2. Trebizonid, Sinop, and Heraclea which are either already under ours, or allied control, or will be next turn, will remain under ours or allied control. Furthermore, you cannot claim any holdings in Cilicia whatsoever. That is between you and Armenia to decide, and you will have to pry those territories from ours and our allies' cold dead hands. We also demand the return of our capital, Ikonion.

3. Rome cannot control Attaleia, as it was used as a staging grounds for invasions of both Turkey and Armenia. I don't care who controls it so long as it is not Roman or Latin. I would ask that it be granted to Armenia as reparations.

4. Demilitarization agreement of no more than 4 units per bordering province as the Romans agreed.


These terms are subject to change and do not cover Armenia's demands. These are our own. Also, if talks do not produce results, the war will continue, and we cannot be held responsible for what happens.

[phonicsmonkey]

A messenger is dispatched to Court to invite the Armenian delegation to join the peace talks.

The Caliph addresses the Romans and Turks.

Since it is clear that the fate of the lands of Cilicia are to comprise a key part of this negotiation, we should hear from the Armenians before we continue with our talks.

Let them join us here and respond to the Roman's offer.

[_Tristan_]

The Armenian mail-clad "diplomat" strides into the antechamber. He goes to the Turkish delegate and embraces him, whispering of word of thanks in his ear. He then goes to sit on the other side of the table from the Roman delegate, a look of disgust clear on his face.

My Lords,

Let me first announce that although grave misdeeds have been done against Armenia and the Takavor own family both by Roman and Latin scum, Takavor Hetum is willing to negotiate the terms of a ceasefire in Anatolia.

The agression Armenia suffered was unwarranted and derived simply from our refusal to recognize the land claims made by the Romans, claims that would not have even left spoils for Armenia.

However, Armenians are a peaceful people... Now that most of our lands have been returned to us, Thank God for Turkish help in this (making the sign of the cross at this point) and that the tide of battle has been turned so that Armenia has finally been able to strike back at the Roman dogs, we want to make known our peaceful intentions in offering a ceasefire to the Romans.

This war has already killed too many good men, first of all Takavor Rueben and Sultan Kilij Arslan, two of the greatest leaders of our time.

It is now time for peace to settle in Anatolia so that we can all prosper and be an example for all people to follow, putting aside ancient feuds and religious differences.

But for such a peace to come to life, we must first deal with the conditions for a ceasefire.

Unrolling a piece of parchment bearing the seal of the Armenian Takavor, the messenger begins to read.

So these are the terms we ask for :

1 - Adana will be returned to Armenia control.
The Roman army stationed there will be turned to Armenian justice for the crimes it commited (OOC :disbanded). Its general Konstostephanos will be put to death personnally by our Takavor for the villainy he perpetrated against the Armenian people (OOC : Leave him out of the city to be engaged in battle)

2 - All lands currently held or under siege by Armenian or Coalition forces will remain under Armenian or coalition control. This concerns the lands of Sinop, Trebizond and Heraclea.

3 - The castle at Seleukeia, actually rebel, is to be considered Armenian territory and thus free of Roman intervention.

4 - For the last seven years (OOC : I think the war started on turn 2, correct me if I'm wrong...), Armenia has been plundered bu Romans and Latins alike, its riches slowly filtering out and its towns razed to the ground. We want those riches back to help rebuild a stronger but peaceful Armenia.
We ask a tribute of 5000 dinarii for seven years, the equivalent of what we lost to this war.

5 - If Attaleia was granted to us as reparations as proposed by our Turkish friend, we would reduce tribute to a five-years length.

6 - Reciprocal demilitarization of our border provinces to not more than four companies of men, as stated by our Turkish ally.

7 - Authorization for Armenia to establish an outpost on Cyprus (OOC : land a spy) to prevent any sea assault.

Rolling back the parchment, the messenger looks directly at the Roman delegate.

We are of course ready for further negociation although not by a wide margin. Our patience with Roman arrogance is at an end.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Caliph has been listening intently. He looks around the table to check that each party has finished speaking, and says:

So, if I understand the thrust of the debate so far, the following items remain of the Roman's offer:

R1 - Konstantinopolis, Nikomedeia, Nikeia, Smyrna, Laodikeia, Theodosiopolis (Erzurum), Rhodos, Iraklion, Nikoseia, Ammoxostos and all of Krimeia are to remain Roman.

(For clarity, this is the Roman's original list repeated, but with Ikonion, Attaleia, Seleukeia, Sinop, Trebizond and Heraclea removed.)

R2 - Rome to pay 15k reparations to the Sultanate, in two equal payments over subsequent seasons.

R3- Common borders to be demilitarized with only 4 units garrison.

Of these items, it would seem the second and third are now agreed by all parties.

The Turks would add the following conditions.

T1 - Sinop, Trebizond and Heraclea will remain in the hands of the coalition.

T2 - Ikonion to be returned to the Sultanate.

T3 - Attaleia to be granted to the Kingdom of Armenia.

And the Armenians would add the following:

A1 - Adana to be returned to Armenia.

A2 - The Roman army at Adana to disband.

A3 - The Roman commander Konstostephanos to be given up to Armenia for execution.

A5 - Seleukeia to be left for Armenia to subdue and bring into its Kingdom.

A4 - Rome to pay Armenia 5k per season for five subsequent seasons (seven if condition T3 is not observed).

A5 - An Armenian outpost to be permitted to be established on Roman-controlled Cyprus.

So, it is for Rome to respond to the conditions proposed by Turkey and Armenia.

How say you, Romans?

[The Lemongate]

It shames us to be sitting at the same table as a man who would ask us to condone murder and massacre, not only of our own people, but of free men-at-arms, some of them his countrymen, that have taken up our cause. And to think that your people were once though of as friends of Rome and that it is through your arrogance that you brought this calamity upon yourself... We will not even discuss this gratuitous slaying of men. We even have to wonder how come it is the Caliph allows such talks to be held here.

As for the Turko-Armenian demands, they are outrageous. You would reduce us to a state weaker then we were before a war that has been a one-sided victory for Rome. And yet we offer to compensate you when it is we who should be demanding compensation! We would demand that you give us reasons to treat you with such generosity! Twice the Turks betrayed our trust, while we have held our word to them. And yet they ask us to prove ourselves.

But for the purpose of these negotiations, we will take your demands and extrapolate upon them in good faith.


Compensation comes for loss of land, not moral reparations. As such, if the Turks and Armenians insist on keeping imperial settlements, they will not receive any money. The settlements they keep would replenish their coffers and those we lose would impact upon our budget. The numbers we proposed were in consideration of our territorial gains, while the numbers they proposed are higher then ours and take no note of our capacity for payment. War is less costly then their present offers.

The towns of Herakleia and Attaleia are not even open for discussion. They belong to the Empire and should be returned if they were captured.

We captured Ikonion because the Turks willingly pulled out while Antioxeia was transfered to us by the Crusaders. We did not destroy any buildings in those settlements and simply gathered the riches left behind by the enemy. If we are to cede those cities, we ask to be compensated for it in a fair way. We leave it to the discretion of the Turks and Armenians to propose an acceptable offer. However, we would note that such an offer could be to relinquish their claims on Trapezon and Sinope, to which we would renounce to our claim to Seleukeia and Cilicia.

Demilitarization, agreed upon by all parties, will have to be clarified for each region once everything is concluded.

The Armenian demands to send a spy is somewhat ridiculous. We would have no way of knowing if they did or didn't and do not feel it necessary to discuss it. If they foment rebellion in our settlements, we will consider it an act of aggression. Otherwise, what their agents do is none of our business.


Should these terms be acceptable, we would be ready to establish formal relations with the Sultanate, the Armenians and the Kingdom of Georgia. And if tensions eased in the region, we might eventually, out of good will rather then through a binding agreement, help our neighbors rebuild from this war. We will also note that, leaving the Armenians in Cilicia, handing Ikonion back to the Sultanate and freeing the northern imperial settlements would reestablish the status quo in the region, which was the basis of our first negotiations with the Sultanate.

[_Tristan_]

It shames us to be sitting at the same table as a man who would ask us to condone murder and massacre, not only of our own people, but of free men-at-arms, some of them his countrymen, that have taken up our cause. And to think that your people were once though of as friends of Rome and that it is through your arrogance that you brought this calamity upon yourself... We will not even discuss this gratuitous slaying of men. We even have to wonder how come it is the Caliph allows such talks to be held here.

The mail-clad Armenian rises to his feet, his fist striking the table.

Shame !! Roman !! Shame, you do not know of shame or you would have died of it for your deeds over the last years...

Friends, you dare call us friends of Rome when you treated us worse than your dogs... I spit on your friendship...

As for the men that we ask be delivered to our justice to do with it as it sees fit, while death will not necessarily be the punishment for the grievous acts they committed, for some this will be the fate that awaits them... May the Lord have mercy of their dark souls...

The only man who faces certain death is Megas Dux Konstostephanos as the mastermind of the genocide of Armenia...

Unless your Basileos wishes to surrender instead...

Compensation is not so much for the loss of land as for the plunder of our land riches, the destroying of its facilities at the hands both of Roman and Latin demons.

If you cannot pay, then ask your staunch ally the Latins to fill your coffers with the riches taken from our palaces, homes and churches...


With this the Armenian sits back down, clearly seething with anger...

[The Lemongate]

Smiling coyly, the Roman head-delegate calmly answers:

Please await the Caliph's permission to speak, Armenian. As for compensation from the Latins, it is by your wishes and those of the Turks that they are not present at these discussions. We will not take up their burden in these matters and your rights to claim reparation from them remain whatever the outcome of our negotiations.

I am sorry if I have spoken out of turn Great Caliph.

[Ferret]

The Ghorid ambassador bursts in half naked and with a young slave girl in tow. When he sees the men talking seriously in the room he turns red faced and leaves as quickly as he entered.

OOC:sorry I couldn't resist

[Askthepizzaguy]

Enjoy your revelry while you can, mutters the Turk with a frightening scowl on his face...

[phonicsmonkey]

The Caliph's brow is furrowed in concentration.

To distill this exchange to its essentials, can it be said that the Romans have made the following statement?

- If the list in clause R1 is not reinstated in full, clauses R2 and A4 will be dropped and the following will constitute the Roman position:

- They modify clause T1 - Heraclea will remain Roman.

- They accept clause T2, the return of Ikonion, and clause A1, the return of Antioxiea/Adana on the condition that either clause T1 is dropped (and those three settlements returned to Roman control), or suitable compensation is paid to Rome.

- If clause T1 is dropped the Romans will also accept clause A5, Seleukia to be Armenian.

- They accept clause A5.

- They reject clauses T3, A2 and A3.

- Clause R3 remains agreed by all parties, subject to 'clarification', which I interpret to mean 'verification'.

I assume from the Armenian delegate's outburst that they reject the Roman position.

But we should hear from the other party before we proceed - what is the Turkish response to the current position?

[Askthepizzaguy]

The Turkish delegate proposes the following terms, as a man of simple Islamic learning, the Caliph's well educated negotiator has him a little lost.

Rome is to pay 10,000 florins to Turkey for reparations, over a two year period.

Ikonion is to be returned to us immediately.

They are not to claim Cilicia, and because of that, the Armenian delegation will most likely have nothing more to say in the matter. The Romans are also to return the Armenian city they still hold and withdraw peacefully, by ship or through Turkish lands, and we will not attack them.

In exhange for this, an immediate cease-fire is to be called and a peace treaty honoured. Our forces will have safe passage out of Nicomedia, and we will withdraw from our assault on Constantinople which is scheduled to occur next season. Roman forces will also have safe passage through our lands, so long as it is in the direction of their borders.

This opens the path for new treaties:

The Romans have demands as well, and a seperate treaty is in order for that matter. They desire Heraclea, and we desire Heraclea. We also desire Sinop and Trebizonid, all three of which are either no longer in Roman control or are about to become Coalition possessions.

Reparations will be paid to Rome for Sinop and Trebizonid as they have demanded from Georgia. However, since Georgia is not present, the Turks are offering to pay that 2,000 silver pieces on their behalf.

Heraclea can then be sold to the Romans for the purchase price of 2,000 silver pieces whenever they please. Also, if the Romans desire Sinop or Trebizonid, we are willing to discuss the sale price of these possessions in the future. For now, we would like to occupy the land to bolster our finances, and perhaps sell them later.

When this second peace accord becomes active, further negotiations will be possible. For now, our borders are defined as Heraclea, Ankara, Ikonion, and all points east until claimed by allied or friendly territory. The Armenians are defined as Karaman and Seleukeia and all points east until claimed by allied or friendly territory. and the Romans are defined as Nicomedia, Dorylaeum, Amorium, Attalia, Nicosia, Famagusta, and Constantinople, and all points south until claimed by the Ayyubids, who can discuss their claims in Africa with the Romans seperately, and it is not a matter for these proceedings.

The Romans and the Turks both claim the Kypchak domain, however a third peace accord will divide our claims amicably at that time.

Does the Roman agree with the First Peace Accord?

Does the Roman agree with negotiating or signing the Second Peace Accord?

Will the Roman desire to discuss the status of the Kypchaks in the Third Peace Accord?

Finally, as I have discussed with Armenia, with their homelands reclaimed, I ask that they bow out of these proceedings. Once the First Peace Accord is signed, they are no longer a party to the negotiations. In order for this peace to be achieved, they will not be getting reparations directly from Rome. I will personally help with the reconstruction, and if they will honour the Treaty of Adana, that should be good enough.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Caliph laughs.

Apologies friends, it seems that in trying to make things simpler I have simply made them more complicated!

What say the Romans to the Turk's re-structured offer?

[The Lemongate]

Your help is extremely appreciated noble Caliph.

Rome agrees in most part with the Sultanate's offer, but would make the following modifications (to be taken as a single block):

1- Herakleia is to be returned to Rome without any price attached to it.

2- Seleukeia is to be under Roman jurisdiction.

3- The final amount of money to circulate between the Sultanate and Rome is 8000 to be payed over a 2 years period to the Sultanate (Rome owes the Sultanate 10,000 while the Sultanate, in Georgia's name, owes Rome 2000)

If these minor changes are agreed upon, I believe we have a deal.

As for Kypchack lands, Rome claims none apart from Krimeia. The rest can be freely taken by all comers, the Sultanate included. Let us note that Roman sovereignty over Krimeia has not been contested here, we hope this does not pose a problem.

Hopefully, the resolution of the current conflict is near.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yes, an oversight on our part. I had to write the thing quickly as my parchment is running out of ink...

(computer issues)

Terms agreed upon.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Caliph is pleased.

Allah u Akhbar! It seems we have reached an agreement. (OOC: )

I propose that this peace agreement be known as the Treaty of Baghdad.

However, the Armenians are yet to declare their consent to these terms - when they have spoken I will arrange for the scribes to produce a draft of the Treaty here for the signatures of all three parties.

The terms can then be announced at Court.

[_Tristan_]

The mail-clad Armenian adresses the Caliph respectfully.

As I often stated in these rooms, Armenians are a peaceful people. So for the sake of peace, I will agree to the treaty as it has been drafted.

Anyway, I would like everyone to know that once again Armenia got the wrong end of the proverbial stick and the next betrayal will be paid in blood and with no recourse whatsoever.

With a last bow to the Caliph, the Armenian leaves the room, clearly disgusted by the result of the talks.

[phonicsmonkey]

I am sorry if our Armenian friends feel they have been pressured into accepting a deal they are not happy with - if they are truly dissatisfied they should say so and hold out for separate negotiations with the Romans, independently of the Turkish deal.

For the time being the scribes have drafted the Treaty of Baghdad as follows:


- Rome is to pay 8,000 florins to Turkey in reparations, over a two year period.

- Ikonion is to be returned to Turkey immediately.

- The Romans renounce all territorial claims to Cilicia, and will return Adana to Armenian control immediately.

- The Roman force currently garrisoning Adana will withdraw peacefully, by ship or through Turkish lands.

- Heraklea is to be returned to Roman control immediately.

- Rome's territorial claims to Seleukeia and Krimeia are recognised by Turkey and Armenia.


Noble friends, please review the terms of the agreement and confirm once more you are in agreement by placing your signatures at the bottom of the document.

Upon execution, the Treaty will be announced at Court and these talks will be at an end.

[_Tristan_]

Signed with the Official Seal of Takavor Hetum I, Survivor of Armenia and Avenger of its People

[Askthepizzaguy]

Official Signature of Sultan Kaikosru of the Turks, Supreme Allied Commander of the armed forces of the Coalition of Freedom

[The Lemongate]

Signed by Manuelos Megas Komnenos, Basileos of Rome

[Askthepizzaguy]

My diplomat is en route to formalize this arrangement. Please allow for one further turn of hostilities, as you do not have a diplomat in the region, Lemongate.

What is to happen is the capture of Sinop and Trebizonid, and if Armenia can take his land back by force his is supposed to do so. However, provided you make no offensive movements towards my main recruitment center or towards my camp near Nicomedia, they will not move at all towards you.

The disengagement will be as follows:

No further Turkish movement towards Rome (not even the seige of Constantinople or Nicomedia)
No further Roman movement towards Turkey
After the settlements above are captured, Armenia nor Georgia will continue to fight.

The peace accords will be signed on the following turn, so on Rome's next turn, they will have the peace accords ready. We are still worried they might not keep their word, but at this point any who break the treaty will be treated as an international pariah. I give the Caliph my word that if the Romans do not attack us, we will not attack them.

Alternatively, the Romans may simply not make any movements with their armies which are within striking range of our forces, that will be shown as an act of good faith as well. Whichever the Romans prefer.

[The Lemongate]

OOC: I will disengage my forces from Antioxeia and Ikonion on my present turn. I would however be much happier if Georgia and Armenia did so as well. For IC reason, letting them sack the towns once the peace is concluded doesn't make much sense to me and since those towns have no buildings and small populations, its not like there is much money to be made from them anyways.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yeah I can see what you're saying. But the situation is so critical that I cannot disengage until the diplomat reaches your doorstep and I receive an in-game agreement. All of this public talk is wonderful, but it is nothing more than a promise which could be easily broken.

However, as I said, I dont expect you to disengage your forces either. If you want to remove your forces from Antioxeia ad Sarum and Ikonion this turn, that is your business. I won't be making any more aggressive movements towards you either.

And I will also tell Armenia and Georgia to occupy, not sack, Sinop and Trebizonid.

When we reach an agreement on giving those settlements back, you will be given a much larger garrison by the game itself anyway, and you will not have lost any significant population.

I'm open to hearing more of your thoughts on this. I want this peace treaty to work, and I'm willing to go most of the way towards disengagement, but there are certain things I can't quite do without formal in game relations, such as withdraw from my camp at Nicomedia.

I dont want to jeapordize the peace agreement; I must point out that the status of Sinop and Trebizonid had been resolved as Coalition held territory. But as I said, there will be no pillaging, and if you ever decide to purchase the properties from us, they will be there, intact (as they currently are, anyway) with the population unmolested.

[The Lemongate]

I will start withdrawing as an act of good faith.

You may do as you please with your armies near Nikomedeia.

And yeah, not sacking is what I meant. That is good enough for me.

I will post the save game when I get home later tonight and we can get this treaty rolling.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Caliph leaves the chamber. His ghulams carefully roll up the Treaty scroll and follow him.

[Vladimir]

Talks are over, time to butt in.

Interesting peace negotiations. It would be nice if something like this could be modeled in game.

You guys deserve some credit!

[Ferret]

Who is this man butting in our peace talks! Remove him at once!

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