hastati vs principes

[spqr_arcani]

Some background:
I'm early on in my Romani campaign and have conquered the Italian peninsula but my economy is not a powerhouse yet. So, whatever I buy consider the bang for the buck. This is still the Camillan era.

So, I was comparing the hastati and principes.
Statswise and historically, principes are the more experienced troops,
and their superiority is noticeable on the battlefield. They also have better
equipment because of their standing/wealth in society.

On the other hand, they only cost 40 mnai more than hastati to recruit, and the upkeep is comparable. I try to have proportions of hastati/principes/triarii/other based on my imagination on how it might have been in Roman times. But based on recruiting costs alone, the motivation is to pick the pricipes over hastati (bang for the buck).

I know it varies, but what were approximate the ratio ranges in those times anyway? I'd imagine something like

1.2-1.5 hastati : 1 pricipe : 0.6-1 triarii


Was there a particular reason why principes are not significantly more costly than hastati? I'm just curious.

[Watchman]

What the unit-cost formulas add up to, pretty much. Recall that if you're talking about the Camillians, the equipement difference amounts pretty much to the pectoral plate (basic shortsword costing the exact same as a spear).

[Olimpian]

Well most people around here use hastati fot role-playing reasons.But if you're looking for bang-for-the-buck and less historical accuracy...principes all the way.I think their biggest advantage over hastati is that the latter is vulnerable to missile fire far more and, since they are used in the first line, will count for most of your casualties in battle,while principes are better armoured and perform better in the front line.

EDIT:And Camilian principes are better against cavalry because they have a spear

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Some background:
I'm early on in my Romani campaign and have conquered the Italian peninsula but my economy is not a powerhouse yet. So, whatever I buy consider the bang for the buck. This is still the Camillan era.

So, I was comparing the hastati and principes.
Statswise and historically, principes are the more experienced troops,
and their superiority is noticeable on the battlefield. They also have better
equipment because of their standing/wealth in society.

On the other hand, they only cost 40 mnai more than hastati to recruit, and the upkeep is comparable. I try to have proportions of hastati/principes/triarii/other based on my imagination on how it might have been in Roman times. But based on recruiting costs alone, the motivation is to pick the pricipes over hastati (bang for the buck).

I know it varies, but what were approximate the ratio ranges in those times anyway? I'd imagine something like

1.2-1.5 hastati : 1 pricipe : 0.6-1 triarii


Was there a particular reason why principes are not significantly more costly than hastati? I'm just curious.

The ratio in the Camillian era is 1:1:1, in the Polybian it's 2:2:1.

[Xurr]

I use the principes pretty much exclusively. Typically I'll put 2 Triarii in an army and the rest of the line infantry is all principes. A full stack army will look something like this:

1 General
10 Principes
2 Triarii
4 Accensi or archers of some sort
3 Cavalry (usually heavy)

I do however use 5 or 6 Hastati for auto resolve battles with rebels/slaves.

An interesting note is that Polybian Hastati are nearly as good as Camillan Principes. They have a lower attack strength but have better moral and skill.

[spqr_arcani]

Cool, I learned so much within an hour!

I'm the type that likes to roleplay somewhat, but not hardcore at it.
So I'll still get hastatis despite the bang-for-the-buck consideration.
I'll also try going for the triumph thingy but it's not a must.

I haven't played the EB 1.1 long enough, so it could be that in Polybian
the prices might be modified a little. If I recall correctly, the 1.0 campaign that I abandoned had hastatis and principes with more noticeable recruiting difference.

I was also surprised to learn from playing EB that principes had spears as well. For the longest time (with RTW vanilla and other mods), principes were simply a more veteran version of hastatis.

PS. And by the way, I have no idea why a smiley face appears at the beginning of the title every time I post. I actually don't smile that much. :)

[Ibrahim]

speaking of spears, isn't the latin for a spear=hasta? kind of sounds Ironic: the Hastati have swords, but the hastas are with the principes; you'd figure the opposite, but no...

[Watchman]

AFAIK it comes from the Hastati once, before the general adoption of the pilum and in all probability also before the rest of the heavy infantry started to carry throwing-spears too, having carried a javelin called - unimaginatively enough - hasta lancea; hence the name.

Or that's what I read somewhere long ago.

[Ibrahim]

I read it too, but it still makes no sense...the contradictions in this life really amusing..

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

AFAIK it comes from the Hastati once, before the general adoption of the pilum and in all probability also before the rest of the heavy infantry started to carry throwing-spears too, having carried a javelin called - unimaginatively enough - hasta lancea; hence the name.

Or that's what I read somewhere long ago.

It's just as likely to come from the Servian Army where the 2nd and 3rd classes were defined by their role as spearmen, rather than skirmishers and slingers.

[Ibrahim]

speaking of lancea, didn't the word lance come from it? hmmm I wonder

[Elmetiacos]

Celticists claim that the Latin lancea comes from a Gaulish word... but they would say that...

[Watchman]

Not like the two languages weren't closely related and shared a lot of very similar-sounding words anyway...

[General Appo]

I find that playing it historically works quite well, using the Hastati in the first line is almost always enough to break the enemy when the cavalry flanks them and the Principes reinforces the line. Often I´ll only take casualties to the Hastatii, which are easily replenished.

[Ibrahim]

also they can take on and hold a line of battle on their own (as I had happen at Bononia lately-vs.Gaesatae too (15 dead and wounded out of 81, gaesatae ~12 out of 49, later all but 9 from rorarii) they broke because the rorarii arrived behind them and fired away. the problem is that they die miserably under missile fire, and many of the surrounding hand to hand troops are superior (Gaesatae, bataroas, and Curoas, and Hastati samnitici). they are better than the pezoi bruttioi and equally as good as leukanoi and liguriae (at least that's how I found them to be) I don't know, I usually fire away and charge at the unit to my right rather than head on...what you do, i don't know

[QuintusSertorius]

By the way, the singular is hastatus, hastati is already plural.

Also if you're just going for effectiveness, you're better off with an all-principes army. But that's just boring. You get that with the Marian reforms anyway.

I find that playing it historically works quite well, using the Hastati in the first line is almost always enough to break the enemy when the cavalry flanks them and the Principes reinforces the line. Often I´ll only take casualties to the Hastatii, which are easily replenished.

Indeed, they get chewed up badly, but usually hold the line. The Polybian version, with better armour, tend to survive better.

[Watchman]

Also if you're just going for effectiveness, you're better off with an all-principes army. But that's just boring. You get that with the Marian reforms anyway.

Then again, that also well illustrates why the standard "Marian" kit was pretty much exactly the old principes one... no ?

[Xurr]

Then again, that also well illustrates why the standard "Marian" kit was pretty much exactly the old principes one... no ?

Well almost, the old Principes kit included the hasta where the Marian kit is gladius based. But yes, standardization was a key element of Roman success. It simplified logistics and troop replacements.

[konny]

I trust very much in the Camillan Hastati when it comes to fight enemy spearmen . May be, it is just my impression, but they seem to kill spearmen very fast when those do not come along with Hoplites or long pike units.

[Ibrahim]

@konny: I've noted that too; one unit got away with killing 100 enemy lugoae for just 15 hastati. but that is applicable to all sword bearing units due to higher lethality (.125 for spear, .13-.33 for sword, depending on type)
now hoplites have high A, which negates low lethality; the sarissa's lethality is ~.16 if i recall, higher than the gladius (.13)