A historically-accurate Roman conquest timeline

[QuintusSertorius]

This is another exercise related to my Guide, ensuring people are taking settlements when they should be. I'd appreciate input and critique on dates, I've primarily used UNRV for specific dates, along with backing some of them up with The Fall of Carthage and Roman Warfare by Adrian Goldsworthy. I've only really gone as far as the Augustan Reforms.

A real question which could become a set of instructions all of it's own is how to deal with "independent, but allied" settlements, for example Massilia, Arse, Emporion, Syrakousai and Iuvovoaeta. Some were later conquered, but how could they best be represented? Taken and given a long string of type IV governments? The bigger question is whether each settlement needs a consideration of how they were historically Romanised. Some were immediately made provinces, others took much longer.

Here's the list in chronological order:

272: Taras
270: Rhegion, Bononia
264: Messana
258: Alalia
240: Lilibeo (by treaty)
238BC: Raid Segesta, hold until Polybian reforms
237: Karali
229/8: Segestica, Dalmanion, Epidamnos
224: Patavium
222: Mediolanium
221: Arse?
219: Lose Arse to Qarthadast
218: Segesta
217-203/191: Lose then regain Segesta, Mediolanium, Patavium
216-211: Lose then regain Capua
212-209: Lose then regain Tarentum
215: Regain Arse, Emporion?
211: Syrakousai
209: Mastia
206: Gader
204-202: Raid Kirtan, invade Africa
200: Bocchoris (by treaty)
200: Raid Pella
197-179: Baikor
188: Asia Minor ceded by Seleukids to Pergamum
181-179: Raid Numantia
167: Ambrakia, Epidamnos; Raid Pella; Makedonia made protectorate
157-5: Raid Vindobona
154: Segesta
154-139: Oxtraca (client state), Lusitania (client state)
147: Pella, Demetrius
146: Qart-Hadast (expel), Adrumento, Atiqa, Lepki; Raid Ippone and any other Qartadastim holdings
146: Korinthos (expel), Thermon, Chalkis, Athenai, Sparte
138: Sucum-Murgi
137: Tyde (client state), Galaecia (client state)
133: Numantia (siege), Pergamon, Sardis, Mytilene, Ipsos, Side (bequest)
129: Hallikarnassos
121: Tolosa, Viennos
105: Ippone, Siga, Lixus (all client kingdoms)
101: Tarsos
96: Kyrene (bequest)
91-88: Social War; possibly allow Italian settlements to rebel and re-take.
91-88: Lose Asia Province (Pergamaon, Sardis, Hallikarnassos, Mytilene, Ipsos, Side) and Greece (Athenai, Sparte, Korinthos) to Pontos
86: Regain Asia Province (but not Tarsos, Halikarnassos client kingdom) and Greece;
80: Mytilene revolts
75: Raid Singidunum, Serdike, Naissos
74 Bithynia-Pontus created and lost
71: Heraclea?
70: Amaseia, Sinope, Trapezous
68-63: Krete
67: Regain Tarsos
66: Antiocheia, Damaskos, Sidon (Syria province created)
64: Ankyra (client state), Hierosolymia (client state)
63: Trapezous, Mazaka (client state)
62: Nikaia regained
61: Lose then regain Oxtraca/Lusitana, Lose then regain Viennos
58: Salamis
51: Loss of Syria to Pahlava? Or just raided?
58-51: Gergovia, Viennos, Burgidala, Lemonum, Avaricum, Bibracte, Cenabum, Darioritum, Bratoporios, Vesontio, Bagacos
55-54: Raid Camulosadae
49: Massilia
30: Egypt annexed (Paraitonion, Alexandria, Memphis, Dispolis-Megale, Pselkis)
29-6AD: Singidunum, Serdike, Naissos, Tylis
25: Ankyra (province)
16: Iuvovoaeta
15: Veldideno
9: Vindobona
8: Vindelicoppolis, Mrog Arctegone, Gawjam-Heruskoz, Gawjam-Habukoz

9AD: Lose Vindelicoppolis, Mrog Arctegone, Gawjam-Heruskoz, Gawjam-Habukoz to Sweboz

There are question marks, because I'm not sure whether some settlements fall under the areas concerned. Furthermore, I may have made some mistakes or omissions along the way.

A completely ancillary issue is the Marian reforms as they're coded in the game, namely that I think the province requisite is too high if you're playing historically. You might have about 48 provinces in 110BC. I know it's been dropped from 50 to 45, but I still think that's a little high. The automatic one strikes me as a little pointless; at 90 provinces you're well beyond the scope of the historical empire and long after victory conditions. My own preference would be to raise the trigger to about 130BC, drop the province limit to around 35 and make it automatic at 90BC or something like that. But that really is a separate issue to this timeline, just something made clear by doing this.

Comments welcome.

[jtareb]

Nice job. The only issue I have is Vindibona being taken in 157bc. I thought the Romans did not advance to the danube until Augustus had come to power. It was either Agrippa or Tiberius who advanced the empire to the danube although a player might go ahead early and make them client states.

I agree about the marian reforms. As there was no clear clean cut date for the change historically i changed my script to make the reform unconditional about 155bc. Given the time it will take to completly overhaul my armies and barracks it will be about 130-120bc before i can field marian armies. I also changed the provincial limit to 35 as that will cover what the romans had historically by that time. A player might even change that to 100bc to reflect Marius coming to power and his utilization of head count soldiers as opposed to the old property-class units.

[QuintusSertorius]

Only reason I went with it is that there were major campaigns in Pannonia 157-55. While Segestica is also part of Pannonia, there's no real delineation between coastal and continental Pannonia, besides Vindibona being called simply "Pannonia".

Actually, UNRV has something to say on Pannionia:

In the early first century BCE, Roman penetration into Raetia, Noricum and Dalmatia moved towards the Danube and Pannonia. The Celtic Scordiscis and Dardanians posed an obstacle to this advance. A hard fought war with the Dardanians, lasting 3 years, enabled Gaiuss Scribonius Curio to be the first Roman general along with his Legion to see the Danube in 73 BC. Little else is heard of Pannonia until 35 BC, when its inhabitants took up arms in support of the Dalmatians who were at war with Rome. This led to an invasion by Augustus, who conquered and occupied Siscia (Sissek). The country was not, however, definitely subdued until 9 BC when it was incorporated with Illyria, the frontier of which was extended as far as the Danube.

Which suggests as you say not until the Prinicpate.

[QuintusSertorius]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the allied communities situation? Should I be taking them and putting in a type IV government? When should I take them?

[konny]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the allied communities situation? Should I be taking them and putting in a type IV government? When should I take them?

As soon as they are needed - or as soon as possible. One of the first things I do in every Roman campaign is to conquer Massilia and make it an allied town. Also after the First Punic I usually conquer Arse (if it has not been taken by someone else in the meantime) and make it a Level IV town. Attacks on these towns should always cause a war with Rome. Depending on the situation over there,I take one or two towns in Greece and make them allied to get into this business as well. The same would be with Nikeia and Pergamon.

Other are debatable. For example the situation of Karthago after the Second Punic War might as well be given as a Roman allied town in EB, that later rebelled and was destroyed on re-conquest.

[QuintusSertorius]

Ones in Asia Minor could be really painful to maintain against Pontos and the Seleukids, though. Although it could be fun to carve out Pergamon with local armies and mercenary generals in a way.

I may have to rush for Massilia in my current game, and later Emporion and Arse.

[General Appo]

Hmmm... that´s a new line of thought. Making Carthage cede all it´s city to you, and letting most rebel except maybe Kirtan which you make a Allied Kingdom, and then take Carthage itself and make the same to it. Then let it rebel and with the help of Numidian soldiers retake it. Brilliant Konny, I must try this out sometime. Though I´m not sure about Atiqa and Adrumeto, should they be left to the rebels or made into client kingdoms?

[QuintusSertorius]

Re-reading more of The Fall of Carthage, Goldsworthy is suggesting that while there were Latin communities in Spain (primarily traders), there were no formal links or alliances before the Second Punic War. So I can wait til around 215BC before trying to take anything in Spain. And use Emporion as my base of operations. On the other hand, Massilia was a long-time ally.

[konny]

215 would be to long because until then either the Karthagians or the Lusotanns will have conquered Arse.

When you want to do it historicaly (not by dates but by events) you should prevent the whites from expanding North of the "Ibero" (probably the Segura, definitly not the Ebro) without causing another war, after the first war that they have lost against you. So I usually sent an expedition to Arse after the conquest of Sicily and Corsica Sardiniaque to establish a Roman allied polis there. As soon as public order is established there and Arse is able to field her own forces, I withdraw all Roman forces from Spain until the next conflict with Karthago.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Roman message to Hannibal: "Don't you DARE touch [my] Arse!"

(sorry, couldn't resist it) :D

[Metalstrm]

218 : Malta (I know it was almost insignificant to the Roman Republic, but hey, it's my country :D)

[alatar]

I would say make the allied cities type 4 goverments.

Sure it isn't perfect, but it is better than being at war with massalia.

[QuintusSertorius]

218 : Malta (I know it was almost insignificant to the Roman Republic, but hey, it's my country :D)

Malta/Melite isn't on the map in 1.1.

[Centurion Crastinus]

great timeline guide

[QuintusSertorius]

I've just realised a problem with not taking Segesta until 154BC; the Polybian reforms. If you don't want to wait until the Second Punic War is over, you have to hold Segesta some time after 242BC along with Bononia, Messana and Lilibeo.

[QuintusSertorius]

Anyone have any thoughts on the "Segesta problem"? Anyone have any sources to suggest whether there were Roman communities in Liguria before it was completely pacified in 154BC?

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Anyone have any thoughts on the "Segesta problem"? Anyone have any sources to suggest whether there were Roman communities in Liguria before it was completely pacified in 154BC?

Simple. Take Segesta as late as possible, when you want the reforms. Wait till you get the reforms. Then withdraw your garrison (to fight Carthage?) and let Segesta go rebel.

[QuintusSertorius]

Simple. Take Segesta as late as possible, when you want the reforms. Wait till you get the reforms. Then withdraw your garrison (to fight Carthage?) and let Segesta go rebel.

That's what I'm beginning to think. Raid it in the 230sBC when you need to get the reforms, then let it rebel until taking it properly in 218BC (only to promptly lose it for a few years during the Second Punic War).

[konny]

You can also change the script to "hold 12 provinces". That would be the starting provinces plus Southern Italy, Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica.

[Belisarius12]

my sources tell me taras was taken in 271 bc for the rest its a great timeline

[QuintusSertorius]

You can also change the script to "hold 12 provinces". That would be the starting provinces plus Southern Italy, Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica.

That's not a bad idea.

[AlexanderSextus]

Quintus, how could i change the script so that the marian reforms are more realistically attainable? (35 provinces and whatever else you thought would be better)

[Megas Methuselah]

Malta/Melite isn't on the map in 1.1.

It's not a part of the Greek portion of Sicily (Syracuse)?

[Artorius Maximus]

It's not a part of the Greek portion of Sicily (Syracuse)?

Actually, you're right, it's a part of the Greek Sicilian province. I wonder though, was it necessary to take Malta out? Did that one extra town give the Carthaginians too much wealth and power in previous versions?

I've played Europa Barbarorum since 0.70 (is that what its called?).

[QuintusSertorius]

Quintus, how could i change the script so that the marian reforms are more realistically attainable? (35 provinces and whatever else you thought would be better)

There's an unconditional part in the script about getting 90 provinces (I think) - change that to a smaller number. That's my plan when I get to 110BC.

[Ludens]

Actually, you're right, it's a part of the Greek Sicilian province. I wonder though, was it necessary to take Malta out? Did that one extra town give the Carthaginians too much wealth and power in previous versions?

I've played Europa Barbarorum since 0.70 (is that what its called?).

EB never included Malta. You are probably thinking of R:TR.

[Cambyses]

I have to say I really admire you guys for playing like this, it must take immense patience! Out of interest, do you use any kind of cheats to create your armies instantly or do you just build them up the slow way over the course of a year like the rest of us. With travel time etc it must be very difficult to have a powerful army at the right place at the right time.

Do you take a lot of interest in other factions also to ensure they dont expand too ahistorically? ie Im now watching Baktria beseige the Ptolemaioi in Babylon...

Also, I imagine you must have to use force diplomacy a lot. I dont you see and I am currently in a Romani campaign. I have never declared on anyone, but was at one stage at war with Aedui, Averni, Lusotnannan, Sweboz, Carthage, Epirus, Macedon, Getai, Pontos, KH and Ptolemaioi. All at once and none of them ever accepted one of my requests for a ceasefire, even when I offered loads of money or even territory.

Consequently, despite my own wishes, I have had to destroy some of them just to stop the constant attacks.

About the Marians. Totally agree with the OP.

[QuintusSertorius]

I have to say I really admire you guys for playing like this, it must take immense patience! Out of interest, do you use any kind of cheats to create your armies instantly or do you just build them up the slow way over the course of a year like the rest of us. With travel time etc it must be very difficult to have a powerful army at the right place at the right time.

You can read all about how I've done this in my AAR (see my sig). This thread is the basis of the conquest timeline in my guide.

It's not that bad, really, although I'd say travel times outside of your own provinces are perhaps a little slow. It does require a lot of fore-thought to get your governors/generals out to the provinces in time.

I don't use create_unit to build up my armies, I do it in the regular way (indeed I avoid using cheats when it would be of benefit to me). It's pretty easy when you've got most of the settlements in Italy able to give you troops (particularly because those outside central Italy give you those for the socii alae). It usually takes no more than two turns to create a full consular army of two legions and two alae. That can be sped up with the odd mercenary unit if I'm feeling flush with cash.

Other thing is I have armies permanently stationed in certain areas; usually two consular armies in Italy, one in Sicily, and soon I'll have two in Spain. I'm starting on shuffling governors out to the provinces, though it does take a while for Spain.

Do you take a lot of interest in other factions also to ensure they dont expand too ahistorically? ie Im now watching Baktria beseige the Ptolemaioi in Babylon...

This was the lesson I learned from my first attempt at a historical simulation game; you can't ignore the other factions. In that 1.0 game I was playing, Pahlava died in 215BC, meaning I'd get no wars with them later on. Baktria were also massive, as were the Ptolemies.

In my current game Epeiros almost conquered Makedonia, but since I stopped them, they've become totally inactive, building armies but not actually doing anything with them. Now it's keeping Koinon Hellenon and Arche Seleukia viable, since they both seem to suffer from their neighbours. Along with preventing Hayasdan becoming a steppe empire. And maintaining a balance of power in Gaul (ie stopping the Aedui wiping out the Arverni) and keeping the Sweboz on their size of the Rhine.

Also, I imagine you must have to use force diplomacy a lot. I dont you see and I am currently in a Romani campaign. I have never declared on anyone, but was at one stage at war with Aedui, Averni, Lusotnannan, Sweboz, Carthage, Epirus, Macedon, Getai, Pontos, KH and Ptolemaioi. All at once and none of them ever accepted one of my requests for a ceasefire, even when I offered loads of money or even territory.

Consequently, despite my own wishes, I have had to destroy some of them just to stop the constant attacks.

I use it a lot. I also use move_character to bolster certain faction's defenses, or remove previous garrisons from the region of settlements I've given to someone else so they don't just take it back again. In some instances I've taken to dumping armies on remote islands so they can't be used, and are a permanent drain on the AI faction's treasuries. I did that to a big Sweboz stack in Gaul, and similarly a Hai and Pontic army both of which are sitting in Crete doing nothing.

And I use create_unit to boost the garrisons of newly-given away settlements or those under siege I don't want to be taken.

About the Marians. Totally agree with the OP.

I actually get a lot of FMs who would trigger the reforms, so there's a chance I might get them some time around 130BC when I've got enough settlements. Either way I won't upgrade anything until later if that happens (round that time I'll be simulating the Gracchan Reform and ditching hastati), but more likely I'll just edit the unconditional trigger closer to the time.

[Ibrahim]

hey I have a challenger for all of you to try: how about making a Pahlavan conquest timeframe as well as the Romani? that poeple is the only other to become a superpower you know...I can construct an Arab conquest timefrome for IBFD, why not apply it to EB?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

A historically accurate Pahlav campaign would have a really boring first couple decades or so...