A Newb's guide to Forum respect

[chairman]

This is a thread for new forum members to read pieces of advise and helpful tips from more experienced members on how to post in a respectful, intelligent manner and how to earn respect from older members. If you have any ideas or encouregments to younger members, please post them here for the sake of the community. I especially look forward to what EB Team members think are important tips.

Thanks for your contributions.

Chairman

[overweightninja]

Sorry to be lazy but...
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79193
Lots of sensible info in there...cheers

[pezhetairoi]

1) If you have a historical challenge to make, quote your sources because the team has theirs.

2) Never, EVER insinuate that the EB team sucks, because this forum is by definition made up of EB lovers so to do so is to invite massive flaming, from ME in particular.

3) Keep in mind that no matter what, it's only a game. So if you've got a problem with EB, go play RTR or Halo or Granado Espada.

4) Don't whine, and don't go on about 'what attitude is this, I was only trying to bring up a point'. This forum community is very tolerant and academic. If you get us pissed, you did something really wrong. And as a newcomer, you should be a little deferent at least to those of us who've been here for years. So take your cue from us, not saunter in like you own the place and founded this mod. Whining only invites STILL more flaming, so if you don't want to be utterly humiliated, post in a rational, mature, academically sound and substantiated manner.

5) Remember that the EB team does consist of professional historians--professors, PhDs, undergrads, archaeologists, etc. These may have access to sources you've never seen or heard of before because they are not published. This doesn't mean that just because you haven't heard of it, it doesn't exist.

6) Osprey books are not legitimate sources. Neither are Manfredi or Pressfield or Iggulden novels.

7) Just because you're Greek speaking Greek doesn't mean you know what Ancient Greek was like, or even that you can comment on the language. Just because you speak English doesn't mean you know all there is to know about it either.

[QuintusSertorius]

2) Never, EVER insinuate that the EB team sucks, because this forum is by definition made up of EB lovers so to do so is to invite massive flaming, from ME in particular.

3) Keep in mind that no matter what, it's only a game. So if you've got a problem with EB, go play RTR or Halo or Granado Espada.

Neither of these two are particularly useful positions to hold. Don't criticise the team personally, sure. Don't criticise their work on the game, not healthy for any useful debate.

And "if you don't like it, sod off and do something else" isn't helpful if you want any constructive input either.

[cmacq]

I play by my own rules...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTvO...eature=related

[Tellos Athenaios]

A very simple way to keep your debates enjoyable is to assume you do not know everything.

A very simple way to do bugreports is to read the stickies first and then post. And of course, follow instructions.

A very simple way of keeping your thread from the fate of spam, is to read the stickies in particular the FAQ first.

A very simple way of avoiding 'oh, no not again' responses, is to do a forum search firts if you are going to ask something along the lines of 'perhaps this has been brought up before, but I wanted to ask...' ; it most likely has. These fora have serious post count for a reason.

A very simple way to avoid feeling left out because of the lingo being tossed around here carelessly is to a) do a google search (Bartix!); b) do a forum search; c) read modding tutorials if it's something techy. (Found on these fora, in abundance...)

A very simple way of making requests with reasonable rates of 'positive' response is to evaluate your request first as if you were an EB modder. Would it involve a lot of work for very little gain (or even at a cost of a sever loss elsewhere) ? Would you be able to do it yourself? (If yes, then post the solution ready-made along with the request. What are we a community for after all, eh?) How does your request look if you take priority into account; relative completeness of certain parts of the mod compared to others ?

The more positive your guesstimate would be; the more likely it's going to receive a serious debate (lot's of requests simply die off as nice idea's not worth a try).

If you experience difficulties with a particular aspect of the game... Do forum searches first.

Have a sense of humor. Know when/where to, and when/where not to make jokes.

If you post, it might be worth to adhere to some form of English. That is, to keep some basic grammar rules in mind. Not everyone is a native speaker of English - keep in mind that the answer to your post may come from someone who's having a hard time figuring out what you meant if you don't provide him/her with that courtesy.

Stay away from all UPPERCASE words.

[cmacq]

And stay away from crazytown...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy3EHf82ZJU

...cause we're all stocked up here.

[pezhetairoi]

Neither of these two are particularly useful positions to hold. Don't criticise the team personally, sure. Don't criticise their work on the game, not healthy for any useful debate.

And "if you don't like it, sod off and do something else" isn't helpful if you want any constructive input either.

Let me rephrase. Not 'criticise', but rather, 'insult'. Which is what has happened. We can take issue when we begin perceiving errors to us. But when one begins entering argumentum ad hominem, and or emotional appeal, or argument based on grounds of who you are, or pure fallacy, rather than on the grounds of academic rigour, then it becomes an insult to the intelligence of the debaters and the etiquette of the debate.

There. Wrong word I chose.

And seriously, sod off and do something else doesn't have to be constructive. We aren't saints. If you don't agree with Obama, you can vote for Clinton, or McCain. No one's forcing you to vote Obama, so don't keep insisting on trying to change who Obama is so you can vote for him.

This forum is tolerant and even fun when posters are respectful of etiquette and basic commonsensical argument. When it goes out of hand, then you see the flames happening. It happens; whether or not it is a 'useful stand' is really irrelevant.

Newbs, it's the way of all forums: be nice, and forumers are nice to you. Act like an idiot, and people are going to counter you, sometimes hard. Observe the case of Rycalawre, who was really offensive and extreme and got blasted three times (or was it two?), but then the third/fourth time, he was a lot more moderate with what he was saying and everyone replied civilly and gently. We don't hold grudges, and we do hope all newcomers will become regular patrons of the forum, and contributors also.

EDIT: It's good to see that no more such flame-worthy threads have been posted in the past few months, so such strictness/self-regulation seems to have worked.

[Horst Nordfink]

Four words: DON'T BE A DICK.

[cmacq]

Like I said, foreget the Darkside and stay away from Crazy Town...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YlJ...eature=related

...in all truthfullness I also suggest the following.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFjX...eature=related

Because...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCOx...eature=related

[Daos]

7) Just because you're Greek speaking Greek doesn't mean you know what Ancient Greek was like, or even that you can comment on the language. Just because you speak English doesn't mean you know all there is to know about it either.

Well if you are Greek you probably have a much better idea of how it was spoken than everybody else. Remember that most of them still learn it in schools.

Anyways I'm new here and just wanted to say hi. This seems the perfect thread for that...

[cmacq]

indeed, after all...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfGI...eature=related

[pezhetairoi]

Lol, Horst, so succinct. That's really all that needs to be said, really.

And nice videos these are.

Welcome to the Org, Daos! They may learn Greek in schools, but the point we've made before in past threads is that ancient Greek was different enough from modern Greek that a grounding in modern Greek is not sufficient in itself to permit informed comment on the ancient variety, which requires study. There have been those who have argued about EB's ancient Greek usage on the grounds of 'I am Greek, I would know better'. But what they say clearly demonstrates they didn't, and when we proved them wrong, they became more and more extreme and offensive.

[cmacq]

You forgot...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QXh...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnSk...eature=related

and...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o-S...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNNc...eature=related

Do the best with what the gods give, and pray the mob's in a bloody good mood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZTZ...eature=related

[Dayve]

Don't ask why Lorica Segmentata doesn't appear in EB.

Don't ask why the naked men are so tough to beat before reading their unit description.

Don't mention the sack of London by Bartix in 231BC, many of the English members here are offended by it.

[bovi]

We don't hold grudges

Actually, I do. It takes a lot longer time to mellow me up than to rile me up, and I think that several forum members are the same. But I do try to act civilly at all times, and good behaviour over time will cancel out any antipathy.

[mini]

Four words: DON'T BE A DICK.

'nuff said.

[QuintusSertorius]

Let me rephrase. Not 'criticise', but rather, 'insult'. Which is what has happened. We can take issue when we begin perceiving errors to us. But when one begins entering argumentum ad hominem, and or emotional appeal, or argument based on grounds of who you are, or pure fallacy, rather than on the grounds of academic rigour, then it becomes an insult to the intelligence of the debaters and the etiquette of the debate.

There. Wrong word I chose.

Which is precisely what I just said. Your implication in your original statement was basically no criticism of anything. My clarification was personal criticism, wrong, criticism of the work itself, valid.

And seriously, sod off and do something else doesn't have to be constructive. We aren't saints. If you don't agree with Obama, you can vote for Clinton, or McCain. No one's forcing you to vote Obama, so don't keep insisting on trying to change who Obama is so you can vote for him.

Which is still an unhealthy position leading to groupthink and the like. You're still saying if people don't like it, tough, then they can just get lost. Which makes the team sound like they're completely closed to any ideas or feedback from outside, which is patently untrue in my experience.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well it depends of course. If you are just saying 'I think this might be done better that way...' it's something different from:

post #1 "It's better this way."
post #2 somebody disagrees/points out why not.
post #3 "Still, it's better my way."
post #4 somebody still not convinced.
post #5 "Look: don't you see it IS better my way"
post #6 somebody retorts: "Look: don't YOU see it IS NOT better your way"
post #7 let the flames/hot-headed remarks begin....

post #n Thread Closed by Tired Moderator. "This thread has clearly run its course" or some such farewell statement, appended.

If one is met with disagreement about one's idea's/opinion's etc. etc. and the merit of the argument is not sufficient to convince other's one should realise that indeed, EB is not the end all/be all of everything in the world; and perhaps a forum debate isn't exactly that either.

[Pode]

Know when to let it go. See example here.

http://xkcd.com/386/

[cmacq]

Be prepared for anything and please use the spill Crack...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPlO8hRpEp4