Political Motivation

[Pannonian]

Here's more.

That's thirty years ago!

All the more reason to attack Iraq, as they'll have had 30 years in which to rebuild their nuclear programme.

[Adrian II]

All the more reason to attack Iraq, as they'll have had 30 years in which to rebuild their nuclear programme.

Imagine Hitler with nuklear arms!

[Tribesman]

Sure sure, but couldn't Hillary, you know, say something like 'If Iran's president is prepared to wipe Israel off the map, I am prepared to wipe Iran off the map' - 'wiping off' being shorthand for 'I am a two-bit dictator with crackpot ideas, no sense of responsibility and a remarkably small penis'?

Nah, Edmund probably wouldn't be that silly.

ah of course the small penis complex , that explains why Tenzing Nogay had such a big smile in the newphangled photogrphic images , the smug little inbred indonesian (or is he mongolian ? doesn't matter as they are all the same)was relying on his imbreeding to furnish himself with a todger the size of a donkeys .
But anyway its all irrelevant now , the young boy from the town has presently arrived on his velocipede bringing a telegram , the news has been delivered from the colonies aboard a clipper bringing wool that Hillary has indeed died .
A rather unfortunate epitaph though , apparently on being questioned about his reasoning to Nuke Iran he replied "because it was there" . Luckily he never got to the peak of high office eh

Just about everyone is implying that everything from my government is trash,while everything from their governments is the gleaming symbol of truth.

Oh dear havn't you downloaded adobe yet , the report linked that shows the claims were bollox is from your government , unless of course you think the US government publishers are doing some moonlighting for another government .

[Spartan198]

what makes the Iraqi people so special to you?

Ajax

I've got close family friends that immigrated from Iraq in the late '80s and still have relatives currently living over there,plus ones that have died under Saddam's regime.
Is that a good enough reason?

[Spartan198]

the report linked that shows the claims were bollox is from your government , unless of course you think the US government publishers are doing some moonlighting for another government .

Pay close attention to this sentence:

On June 7, 1981 Israeli warplanes struck the Osirak nuclear facility near Baghdad.

Would a country not need nuclear capabiltiy to construct any kind of nuclear facility? And henseforth the capability to construct said nuclear facility would mean the capability to produce nuclear weapons. Said nuclear facility would produce radioactive material usable in constructing said nuclear weapons.
And look closely at the date. Israeli bombers destroyed the facility in 1981,which was a bit less than 20 years and 1 month before the official US invasion.
That gives Saddam more than enough time to rebuild said facility.

Edit: And on top of that,why don't you open up this link,and look at the source of the info at the bottom of the page:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ry/Osirak.html

[Ronin]

ok...first of all pay close attention to THIS sentence..

On June 7, 1981

that was a while ago wasn´t it?....between then and 2003 wasn´t it there like a war that basically destroyed the infrastructure they would need to such an endeavor?

also...second....

I wouldn´t trust the israel defense forces to tell me the truth on information regarding Iraq any more that I would trust Hammas to give me the straight truth about Israel....

[Tribesman]

Pay close attention to this sentence:

Yes and ???????? Oh I get it , it was destroyed , and then the Americans made sure it was definately destroyed , and the UN checked to made sure it was really destroyed so....errrrr doesn't that mean it didn't exist in 2003 ?
Or am I missing some really cunning punchline you are about to deliver ?

Would a country not need nuclear capabiltiy to construct any kind of nuclear facility? And henseforth the capability to construct said nuclear facility would mean the capability to produce nuclear weapons. Said nuclear facility would produce radioactive material usable in constructing said nuclear weapons

Ok now I don't know how to put this politely , but it appears that not only don't you think , cannot read and have such strange definitions of what constitutes truth that it really beggars belief , it appears you add not having a clue about nulclear science to the equation .

As Hillary recently said Iran has oil , oil can be made into petrol , petrol fuels internal combustion engines , those engines can be found in cars , so that means Iran has the worlds leading car manufacturing plants .
Though in fairness it was suggested that Hillarys rant was the much delayed after effect of altitude sickness .

I must ask though , if your own government says the claims it made were bollox, all the other governments say the claims were bollox , the weapons inspectors say the claims were bollox how is it you cannot comprehend that the claims were indeed bollox ?
Now I know you said you don't hold with conspiracy theories , but it certainly appears that you have a little conspiracy theory going yourself , the entire world is lying and you alone know the truth

[HoreTore]

They're only elected as members of parliament.

I don't know how coalition's are born in your country, but over here it basicly comes down to that two (sometimes three) large parties make deals about what to do and what not, and divide ministry posts as spoils of the election. We only have an indirect voice in how the executive branch is going to look like.

Before the election, the three parties of our governing coalition all named stoltenberg as their choice for PM, should they get majority together. Three other parties did the same for Bondevik.

Anyway, a PM is completely different from a president. Stoltenberg doesn't have a lot of power here; he has to do exactly what the party tells him to do. If at any time the party is unhappy with him, he will be removed instantly. If the republicans are unhappy with Bush, all they can do is yell at him. The PM position is a position of power for a party, the presidential position grants a lot of power to an individual.

[Ironside]

Just about everyone is implying that everything from my government is trash,while everything from their governments is the gleaming symbol of truth.

You remember that Duelfer report Redleg refered to in post 94? The CIA homepage was hacked 4 years ago by leet skillz liberal hackers that put that report on the homepage (sometimes later in a nice html format). At this day the CIA still haven't been able to remove this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It might also be the offical CIA report on the WMD projects in Iraq, but with the liberal media you never really know...

Well, the U.S. will have to attack Iraq first and secure at least most, if not all of their territory. Rumsfeld seems to think it'll be a walk-over, but I have my doubts whether the number of troops he sent will be sufficient to pull it off and pacify the country.

Pannonian, is there some sort of post-invasion planning being done, that you know of?

Well if what I've heard the oil money will be so much that it will basically pay the war and rebuilding by itself.
As for the actual rebuilding it will end up in competent hands (who can say that opportunists and Bush lovers aren't naturally compentent and won't ever put thier own interests over the common good) and by loading tons on money without any supervision the money will automatically end up in competent hands helping rebuilding swimming pools in the US Iraq.

[Adrian II]

[..] loading tons on money without any supervision the money will automatically end up in competent hands helping rebuilding swimming pools in the US Iraq.

So Cheney is on it then? Let's hope he doesn't shoot his hunting partner himself in the face foot.

[HoreTore]

Pay close attention to this sentence:

Would a country not need nuclear capabiltiy to construct any kind of nuclear facility? And henseforth the capability to construct said nuclear facility would mean the capability to produce nuclear weapons. Said nuclear facility would produce radioactive material usable in constructing said nuclear weapons.
And look closely at the date. Israeli bombers destroyed the facility in 1981,which was a bit less than 20 years and 1 month before the official US invasion.
That gives Saddam more than enough time to rebuild said facility.

Edit: And on top of that,why don't you open up this link,and look at the source of the info at the bottom of the page:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ry/Osirak.html

Back in the day when Saddam was supported by western governments, you mean?

[Tribesman]

Back in the day when Saddam was supported by western governments, you mean?

Yeah that should be interesting , when they eventually catch him and put him on trial it will be fascinating to see what Saddam says about his western suppliers and backers in relation to his gassing of the Kurds .

Well if what I've heard the oil money will be so much that it will basically pay the war and rebuilding by itself.

Oh well if that is the case I will definately support the troops and vote for the funding , after all its only right that Iraq revenue should be used for the benefit of Iraq , if however they change the bill and lumber the US taxpayer with all the expense I might have to reconsider and perhaps flip my vote over to a no , after all its only reasonable and no one could possibly hold such a change of vote in those circumstances against me .

[ajaxfetish]

Yugoslavia has been broken up into several nations - so which new republic should we invade. That is besides the ones that alreadly have some sort of NATO or UN presence?

“Yugoslavia”: This country doesn’t exist any more. About old news...

“Yugoslavia has been broken up into several nations - so which new republic should we invade”: Considering NATO bombing, a Protectorate in Bosnia with several Foreign Troops on it territory, a Protectorate kind of Panama model in Kosovo "Self Proclaimed Country" helped by Foreign Troops, carved in a other State which refuses to recognise the spoil of war, we can consider that it is “mission accomplished”…

Just for the record, one of the nations resulting from the fragmentation of Yugoslavia goes by the name of . . . wait for it . . . Yugoslavia.

I've got close family friends that immigrated from Iraq in the late '80s and still have relatives currently living over there,plus ones that have died under Saddam's regime.
Is that a good enough reason?

That certainly makes a particular concern for the people of that nation more believable. Thank you.

Ajax

[ajaxfetish]

ah of course the small penis complex , that explains why Tenzing Nogay had such a big smile in the newphangled photogrphic images , the smug little inbred indonesian (or is he mongolian ? doesn't matter as they are all the same)was relying on his imbreeding to furnish himself with a todger the size of a donkeys .
But anyway its all irrelevant now , the young boy from the town has presently arrived on his velocipede bringing a telegram , the news has been delivered from the colonies aboard a clipper bringing wool that Hillary has indeed died .
A rather unfortunate epitaph though , apparently on being questioned about his reasoning to Nuke Iran he replied "because it was there" . Luckily he never got to the peak of high office eh

Wow! Worthy of Gregoshi!

Ajax

[Brenus]

“Just for the record, one of the nations resulting from the fragmentation of Yugoslavia goes by the name of . . . wait for it . . . Yugoslavia.”
I suggest you to read newspapers (from between 5 and 3 years old) and watch news. Yugoslavia doesn’t exist any more. The last “Yugoslavia” was the Union of Montenegro and Serbia. Montenegro broke the Union, with a Referendum, I think 2 years ago, then the Yugoslavia (The Slave of the South) ceased to exist, living Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia (Federation and Republic of the Serbs) Macedonia (Former Yugoslavv Republic of Macedonia), Montenegro, Slovenia as independant States and distinct.

Good to be sarcastic, better when it is on informed basis…

[Ironside]

So Cheney is on it then? Let's hope he doesn't shoot his hunting partner himself in the face foot.

Cheney is on it and so it Rumsfeld, who suggested that we might be able to reduce the number of troops to about 30.000 at the end of the year. So according to plan, almost all the troops will be home in less than a year. Very impressive.

Cheney seems to be a bit more pessemistic and expects an insurgence, but it will most certainly be at it's last throes by the middle of 2005.

[Adrian II]

Yeah that should be interesting , when they eventually catch him and put him on trial it will be fascinating to see what Saddam says about his western suppliers and backers in relation to his gassing of the Kurds.

Or the satellite pictures the U.S. provided to him. Or the virus cultures they sent him with which to expand his biological warfare capability. Or the chemicals and expertise sold to him by the Europeans. Or the $1bn US contract to design and build a petrochemical plant which Saddam planned to use to produce mustard gas right after the Halabja massacre. Or the U.S. and UK blocking UN investigations into his gassing of Iranians. Or the hundreds of millions of dollars of U.S. loans with which Saddam paid for Russian and Chinese expertise and weapons systems which they sold to him in spite of all the sanctions.

Wait.

I'm getting really bad vibes of a sudden.

You don't suppose they sentence him to death or a relatively minor charge and hang him before all of this transpires, documents appear, present and former heads of state from around the world are called to the witness stand and so on.

[Spartan198]

Back in the day when Saddam was supported by western governments, you mean?

Enemies change with the times,just like warfare itself. Today's closest ally could end up being tomorrow's bitterest enemy.

That certainly makes a particular concern for the people of that nation more believable. Thank you.

No matter where I go,some people will doubtless assume this and that simply on the basis of my nationality. There's no escaping it,so I might as well disprove said assumptions where ever I can and not let the rest of it bother me.

Just for the record,though,I do believe that everyone has the right to live without being persecuted for who they are,what they believe,etc.. But there are still individuals who won't ever get the cheuvanistic American stereotype out of their heads. Doesn't matter to me,anyway. Has no baring on who I really am,after all.

[Pannonian]

Enemies change with the times,just like warfare itself. Today's closest ally could end up being tomorrow's bitterest enemy.

I suppose Britain should start preparing for war with the US then, on the back of this observation.

[HoreTore]

Enemies change with the times,just like warfare itself. Today's closest ally could end up being tomorrow's bitterest enemy.

Yes, but can you really pick on him for what he did when he was your own ally...?

[Ronin]

Yes, but can you really pick on him for what he did when he was your own ally...?

you took the works out of my keyboard...

[CountArach]

Cheney is on it and so it Rumsfeld, who suggested that we might be able to reduce the number of troops to about 30.000 at the end of the year. So according to plan, almost all the troops will be home in less than a year. Very impressive.

Cheney seems to be a bit more pessemistic and expects an insurgence, but it will most certainly be at it's last throes by the middle of 2005.

Haha, man I got such a laugh at that

[Tribesman]

Yes, but can you really pick on him for what he did when he was your own ally...?

Of course you can , as long as you avoid questions about why you helped him do it . A quick execution might solve that issue though .

I mean you could of course explain that these Kurds were evil Iranian backed terrorists who were fighting against a good Iraqi dictator and were aiming to establish a Kurdish homeland in Iraqi territory which would be a good reason really as to why they deserved to be gassed
But then you would have to explain why these evil Iranian backed terrorists fighting for a Kurdish homeland in Iraq are now called a stabilising influence .

Or the satellite pictures the U.S. provided to him. Or the virus cultures they sent him with which to expand his biological warfare capability. Or the chemicals and expertise sold to him by the Europeans. Or the $1bn US contract to design and build a petrochemical plant which Saddam planned to use to produce mustard gas right after the Halabja massacre. Or the U.S. and UK blocking UN investigations into his gassing of Iranians. Or the hundreds of millions of dollars of U.S. loans with which Saddam paid for Russian and Chinese expertise and weapons systems which they sold to him in spite of all the sanctions.

Now now Adrian be fair , many western governments including your own helped him with his nastyness , not just the US and Britain , and many countries sold him weapons despite the sanctions......
actually which was the country that sold him helicopter gunships but called them agricultural machinery because to do otherwise would have been breaking not only its obligations under international sanctions that it approved but breaking its own national laws too ?
hmmm ....hard question that one isn't it , I think the answer is out there on a carrier pigeon somewhere .
Though obviously you will have to obtain the correct crib sheet to read it after you catch the pigeon as the answer is encrypted since such information is of course extremely sensitive and it wouldn't do for just anyone with the new babbage engine to be able to access it .
Plus there is the advantage that you can eat the pigeon after you retrieve the information , these new methods of information transmission are not only highly informative they are rather nutritious too .

[Adrian II]

Now now Adrian be fair , many western governments including your own helped him with his nastyness , not just the US and Britain , and many countries sold him weapons despite the sanctions......

That is exactly what I did, good Sir. I would prefer it if you read my posts before swallowing them whole, wrenching the pigeon's neck, changing into enemy enemy uniform and sleeking inconspicuously into yonder brushwood, brandishing nine inches of cold Irish steel beneath your sly grin.

[ajaxfetish]

“Just for the record, one of the nations resulting from the fragmentation of Yugoslavia goes by the name of . . . wait for it . . . Yugoslavia.”
I suggest you to read newspapers (from between 5 and 3 years old) and watch news. Yugoslavia doesn’t exist any more. The last “Yugoslavia” was the Union of Montenegro and Serbia. Montenegro broke the Union, with a Referendum, I think 2 years ago, then the Yugoslavia (The Slave of the South) ceased to exist, living Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia (Federation and Republic of the Serbs) Macedonia (Former Yugoslavv Republic of Macedonia), Montenegro, Slovenia as independant States and distinct.

Good to be sarcastic, better when it is on informed basis…

Well color me embarassed . I generally pride myself on a decent knowledge of geography, but that change sailed right by well below my radar. I'll be sure to take your advice on sarcasm to heart.

Ajax

[Tribesman]

Ajax , a small question

That certainly makes a particular concern for the people of that nation more believable. Thank you.

how does it ?
His friends left Iraq when Saddam was killing Iraqis with Spartans governments(amonng others) assistance , surely if his concern was more believable he would be really critical of his governments role .
Its about as believable as the person who said they hated Chavez because he knew people who had fled from persecution by his government years before he had got anywhere near government .

[ajaxfetish]

I think of it in terms of the monkeysphere. There are only so many people you can comprehend as having humanity at a time. People inside of that circle matter. People outside are statistics. While he may not know people currently living in Iraq, knowledge of people from there could put a face on the idea of the Iraqi citizen, giving them more humanity and prompting more empathy. I can at least imagine Spartan feeling more concerned about the people of Iraq than a nation he is completely unfamiliar with.

As to the second part, having a concern for someone doesn't mean you necessarily help them in the most reasonable way. Lack of understanding or critical thinking, or the blinders of preconception could still prevent it.

Ajax

[Tribesman]

As to the second part, having a concern for someone doesn't mean you necessarily help them in the most reasonable way.

Yeah I know what you mean , some peoples idea of help is to support a dictatorship when it is killing its population , then impose sanctions that hurt the population and enrich the dictator , then break those sanctions in a manner that enriches the dictator more , then bomb the population , then invade and kill them , then execute the dictator and carry on killing the population and pretend you really care about them .

That is exactly what I did, good Sir. I would prefer it if you read my posts before swallowing them whole

Hey Adrian it was just a good lead into the gunships into ploughshares dig .

brandishing nine inches of cold Irish steel beneath your sly grin.

Who needs nine inches , an inch knuckleblade does the job much better .
But as Hillary said size doesn't matter , which of course made Tenzings smug smile even bigger .

[HoreTore]

Well color me embarassed . I generally pride myself on a decent knowledge of geography, but that change sailed right by well below my radar.

Yeah well, you probably already knew it, but with the name of "Serbia and Montenegro"...

Basically what happened is that everyone else split up and made new states, and the only territory left was what made up Serbia and Montenegro, neither of which declared any independence, but decided to stick with a semi-union. They've declared independence by now though, first Montenegro, then Serbia a few days after, and that was the final end of Yugoslavia.