OOC Thread

[TinCow]

France has prospered under the reign of King Philip the Honorable. Her territories have expanded to encompass all of France itself, as well as England, Wales, Flanders, and Northern Spain. The realm is divided amongst four noble Houses.

In the east, the House of Anjou is the largest and most prosperous. Its Lord, Marquess Raulet Poitevin is an old friend of King Philip, and the two share much in common in their political views. Throughout Philip’s reign, the House of Anjou has received particular favor at Court and has gained immense prestige and honor.

In the south, the House of Gascony is the main rival to the House of Anjou. Its Lord, Count Guillemot de Lyon is a notorious drinker and adulterer and generally embodies everything that King Philip and Raulet Poitevin detest. The House of Gascony was the prominent leading House of France under King Philip’s father, and through his favor they were given vast resources to wage war against Aragon and Navarre. These wars were successful and secured for Gascony a strong hold in Spain. However, this front has languished for many decades now. Military resources were diverted away to the House of Anjou when King Philip assumed the throne, and Guillemot de Lyon has been publicly scorned by the King for his behavior.

In the north of France, Prince Louis, the eldest son of King Philip and heir to the throne, controls the House of Normandy. He could not be more unlike his noble father, and there has been much disagreement between them. As the Viscount of Normandy, Louis expected to gain control over the prosperous territories of England after the successful invasion and conquest, in which Louis’ armies and vassals played a key part. Louis himself earned great distinction and even surpassed his father’s skill at command to become the greatest general in France. However, King Philip believed it more prudent to spread power to the other nobles than to concentrate it in once house, particular one led by his turbulent heir. Philip believed that Louis needed to be taught a lesson in humility and politics before he ascended to the throne, and thus gave the new English provinces to his second son, Henry, who had fought well alongside his elder brother in the war. Thus, all of England and Wales is controlled by the newly named House of Albion, led by Viscount Henry.

Yet, King Philip's last years were not destined to be peaceful ones. Prince Louis did not take his father’s actions in the manner he was meant to. To him, they were a direct affront to his honor and an insult to the blood and sweat he had shed in the conquest of England. Already a man to whom dreadful actions were natural, he decided to get revenge on his manipulative father. Yet, he could not attack the King directly, for fear of losing his claim to the throne. So, Prince Louis decided to strike at his father by manipulating the long-standing rivalry between Anjou and Gascony. Anjou was single-handedly holding the front line against the Holy Roman Empire, France’s old foe. It commanded more strength of arms than any other House, but it was focused on external enemies, not internal ones.

Prince Louis used his immense popularity after the war with England to gain the Chancellorship. From there, he funneled resources to Gascony, quickly swelling the ranks of their armies. Though Anjou was still stronger, it was distracted by the foreign war. With this advantage in their favor, and the secret support of the Chancellor who continued to give them a disproportionate share of France’s treasury, Gascony declared war on Anjou, determined to seize control of several provinces and regain their old position as the preeminent House in France.

And so it was that the War of the Houses began.

King Philip the Honorable (Ramses II CP) – 55 Owns: Paris, Marseille, Ajaccio & 1 Royal Army

House of Anjou
Marquess Raoulet Poitevin (The Lemongate) – 55 Owns: Digon, Metz & 1 Private Army
Count Bohemond Chanteur (Tristan de Castelreng) – 39 Owns: Bern & 1 Private Army
Viscount Jaques de Toulouse (gibsonsg91921) – 29 Owns: Rheims & 1 Private Army
Baron Germain Arnoud (rossahh) – 26 Owns: Antwerp
Baronet Thomas Maquereau (Ichigo) – 27 Owns: Bruges

House of Gascony
Count Guillemot de Lyon (Privateerkev) – 47 Owns: Toulouse, Zaragoza & 1 Private Army
Viscount Richart Marcel (Ignoramus) – 36 Owns: Bordeaux & 1 Private Army
Baron Marcel de Brabant (PrinceofTroy) – 36 Owns: Pamplona
Baronet Michiel (deguerra) – 17 Owns: Valencia

House of Normandy
Chancellor, Viscount, and Prince Louis (OverKnight) – 36 Owns Caen & 1 Royal Army
Baron Perrin Gassou (TheFlax) – 35 Owns Angers
Baronet Bertin de Plaisians (Elite Ferret) – 25 Owns Rennes

House of Albion
Viscount Henry (Cecil XIX) - ? Owns: London, Caernarvon & 1 Private Army
Baron Hugues de Poitiers (Zim) – 28 Owns: Nottingham
Baronet Hermant Tanlay (TinCow) – 27 Owns: York

Notes:

(1) At the time the game starts, it will be treated as though Guillemot de Lyon has just made a Declaration of War against Raoulet Poitevin. Everything else will follow according to the rules. Role-play your characters however you want. Join the war, stay neutral, sue for peace, etc. Split from your House if you don’t like it, join another House, generally whatever you want, keeping in mind the background I have provided to the various Houses and characters.

(2) The rank names have not been altered to fit France. This isn’t meant to be an in-depth game, so don’t both changing them. Just refer to them as they are in the rules for convenience and clarity.

(3) If anyone has a problem with the role I have assigned them, or won’t be able to participate for any reason, please let me know.

(4) The save game file has not yet been edited. All characters will be moved to locations within their respective provinces with a few exceptions, such as some Anjou avatars who will be inside HRE territory and Gascony avatars who will be on the border with Anjou. I will not be editing the avatars or the city improvements, though, so if you want to see what your avatar or provinces look like, the save is accurate for them. Every single player will have units they already control (Private or Royal Army) or units in their ‘owned’ settlement(s) that they can immediately seize once the game starts, should they wish to. Generally, Anjou will start with stronger armies than Gascony, but they will be out of position to respond to the Gascony attack. In addition, the Chancellor will probably be giving Gascony more support than Anjou.

(5) Please do not open up other threads for this game. I want to keep this organized well, so I will make the necessary threads with the right titles after I have edited the save game. For now, just post in this thread, which will serve as the OOC thread for the rest of the game.

[PrinceofTroy]

Every time I try to download the savegame it won't allow me to and it says something about Kumagames.exe. I don't know why, does anyone have any idea what this problem is or how to fix it??
Thanks,
PrinceofTroy

[_Tristan_]

Let's start an IC thread and start throwing insults and accusations at each other's face...

[_Tristan_]

@ PrinceofTroy : DL works for me... But I haven't checked the save yet...

Don't know what the problem might be...

[TinCow]

I suppose that's acceptable, just remember that you don't know what armies you will have at your command yet or where your avatar will start, beyond the general outline I gave above. I'll open it in a second...

[Privateerkev]

Let's start an IC thread and start throwing insults and accusations at each other's face...

I'd love to but TC said he'd start the threads later. Until then we can just keep PM'ing. :D

*edit*

nevermind

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, this was an interesting start to my afternoon.

Give me some time to take everything in and Prince Louis will be heard in due time.

[The Lemongate]

I fear I started yet another game with an outburst Oh well, couldn't resist ad hominem attacks! Those are the best

[Privateerkev]

I fear I started yet another game with an outburst Oh well, couldn't resist ad hominem attacks! Those are the best

Guillemot had it coming.

I don't expect anyone to give him a free pass for his reputation. Just don't expect him to always rise up to the bait. :D

[Zim]

Funny, Nottingham was the line at which I had held off the Danes in the MPC game for a little while. It's quite a familiar place after having spent a couple of weeks focusing strategy on it.

[TinCow]

Okay, this was an interesting start to my afternoon.

Give me some time to take everything in and Prince Louis will be heard in due time.

I hope it was ok to saddle you with the Chancellorship. I wanted an experienced player at the helm of the test game, and I figured you hadn't been Chancellor since Heinrich, so you were about due again.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I hope it was ok to saddle you with the Chancellorship. I wanted an experienced player at the helm of the test game, and I figured you hadn't been Chancellor since Heinrich, so you were about due again.

I appreciate the gesture, but my disk drive's been wonky lately. You may have to find someone else or step in yourself depending on how things go. I'll give you a definitive answer in a day or two.

[TinCow]

Ok, I think I've done everything that needs to be done for the save. Let me know if anyone sees anything that looks blatantly wrong.

http://mizus.com/files/pbm/FranceTest_start.zip

In my original setup, we were actually running a defecit of about 4k per turn, so I cut the starting armies down a bit across the board. Now we're running about 2k per turn profit, which doesn't leave much room for lavish investment, but we have a small chunk in the bank which will give the Chancellor an ability to influence things as he wishes. If armies expand much more, money will become tighter, which will probably mimic our next game anyway, so that's not a bad thing.

Note that the AI probably won't be much of a challenge at all in this game. That's not a big deal, since this is designed to test the Civil War and general movement rules, not the AI. Stomp on them all you want.

Also, be aware that this save appears to be from a game with huge unit sizes. Hopefully this won't be a problem for anyone's computer, but in any case the real game will only use large unit sizes like KOTR did.

Let me know if anyone has any questions. If not, you're free to start playing whenever the Chancellor says go.

[Ramses II CP]

Ahh, sorry, forgot the huge unit sizes bit. I have that on by default.

[GeneralHankerchief]

All right, I'll freeze things for another day or two of strictly political maneuvering and let people sort things out. Sometime on Thursday I'll open the save.

[Ramses II CP]

So, I can immediately think of one question that doesn't have a well defined 'rules' answer: If the Chancellor rebels, who are the real rebels? Technically since the Chancellor commands armies doesn't anyone who opposes the Chancellor have to rebel to remain in command of their forces?

I'm also curious whether or not people think we should have succession rules for the event of the death of the Chancellor in a civil war. Should his killer or his killer's house then be able to claim the Chancellorship for the rest of his term?

I think there are going to be some significant missteps here on this first turn. I definitely need to figure out what to do to protect my forces from leaking over and joining the Prince, but IIRC there's a rule specific to that and I'm just too tired to recall it well.

Hitting the sack now, but I think things are off to an interesting start.

[Privateerkev]

As far as I know, the Chancellor can't mess with private and royal armies, men in your town, or men in your fort. Those are yours. And you say where they move. What the Chancellor can do is refuse to build anything in your settlements.

And on a separate note, I finally got a look at the save and boy do we have some cool traits!

[Zim]

I've been wondering, I know the Chancellor can't mess with garrisons. But what if you have to leave a settlement or fort to fight off some rebels/enemy armies and your men don't have enough move to come back to the settlement. Can the Chancellor take them then if they want?

[Cecil XIX]

I've been wondering, I know the Chancellor can't mess with garrisons. But what if you have to leave a settlement or fort to fight off some rebels/enemy armies and your men don't have enough move to come back to the settlement. Can the Chancellor take them then if they want?

Looking at the rules, that does seem to be the case. That seems like a discrepency, conidering the Chancellor's control can be taken away from units in forts and cities.

[TinCow]

I'll think about Zim's question after I've been caffeinated. Also, I'll open up an Orders thread that will be in the same format as we'll use for the real game thread. That will be the place where you will indicate which units (if any) you have 'seized.'

[TinCow]

*Pre-caffeine*

This definitely seems problematic, perhaps a rule edit is needed.

*Caffeinated*

Ah, this is exactly what I intended when I wrote the rules. People without private/royal armies are essentially limited to the defense of their settlements unless they want to risk the whims of the Chancellor. Low level ranks can protect their property and their lives, but they need help from higher ranks to obtain more property. This applies just as much in a Civil War as in normal play.

Yes, if you cannot kill the rebels and get back to a safe for or settlement in one turn, then you risk the whims of the Chancellor. Your choices under those circumstances are to let the rebels sit, risk the Chancellor disbanding/moving some of your units, or make some kind of deal with the Chancellor. That seems fair to me and not too difficult to achieve. The Chancellor is still answerable to the Diet, so it's not really in his interests to interfere with a neutral party trying to keep their lands clear of rebels. If you're allied with the Chancellor, you should be able to trust him. If you're actively hostile to the Chancellor... well, perhaps that's your biggest problem rather than the rebels.

A truly neutral Chancellor probably wouldn't interfere with such an action. Only a partisan Chancellor would... and that's the point. The Chancellorship is MEANT to be a powerful position, and it's meant to be a huge advantage during a Civil War. Since anyone except the lowliest Knight can be elected Chancellor, this shouldn't be too biased. We want the Chancellorship to be powerful and useful because then people will compete for it. Lack of competition in elections is bad for the game.

[Cecil XIX]

Tincow, isn't it impossible for any Electors to own fleets in the Test Game?

[TinCow]

The Test Game is using the most recent draft of the rules, which can be found here. Under those rules, fleets can be 'seized' by Dukes, Grand Dukes, and the Faction Leader. So, King Philip can already do it if any ships stop in Marsailles or Ajaccio (which he owns). No one else can unless there is a re-arrangement of ranks that promotes someone to Duke.

[TinCow]

I'm also curious whether or not people think we should have succession rules for the event of the death of the Chancellor in a civil war. Should his killer or his killer's house then be able to claim the Chancellorship for the rest of his term?

I think we should just use the existing rules, which provide for an immediate emergency session to elect a new Chancellor. If the dead Chancellor had the support of the majority when he died, they'll probably pick a logical successor to continue the war. If the dead Chancellor did not have the support of the majority when he died, then his death was essentially a major defeat for his side in the Civil War and they should lose the Chancellorship. If you know your side would lose in an emergency session election, keep your Chancellor safe!

[TinCow]

Ah, crap. I forgot to include the format for build queues etc in the Status and Orders thread. Thanks for remembering that Ramses. I will edit the standard format and example to include that info. Comments on thread organization in general are welcome. Let me know anything that doesn't work well, should be improved, moved elsewhere, is not needed, etc.

*Edit*
Thread format adjusted accordingly. My intention for that thread is for it to be the one spot where all important individual orders, actions, etc. can be kept for easy reference.

[TinCow]

The following is self-explanatory. Also note that I have put the most up-to-date version of the rules in the first post of the Rules Draft thread for convenience, since it was causing problems being down on page 3. I will keep updating the first post as rule changes are formally made.

Hi, these are questions for TC but I figured GH would need to know the answers as well.

A.) In a Civil War, if I want to enter an enemy settlement, do I have to have the MP to enter or just sit outside? What about sieges? Ig can get his Ballista right up to Dijon on turn one. But he can't get in. I can get into Dijon, but have no artillery.

B.) If there is no enemy general in the enemy settlement, can we just "tag" it like in KotR's civil war? Or do we have to fight the garrison?

C.) Can I ask GH to do Gascony's moves? If I upload the save with our moves, Anjou will see them. And vice-versa. But can GH (or TC) move all parties in a civil war after everyone has made their personal moves? That would keep things secret.

Thanks,
Kevin

To: PK & GH

A) Whenever two armies at war move adjacent to each other, a battle will occur. If you move adjacent to an enemy city that has a garrison, you will have to fight to take the city. If you have artillery of some kind that can make an immediate breach, you can attack immediately. If you do not have artillery, you'll have to build siege equipment. It will be up to the umpire of the battle to determine how much you can get, but personally I would just give you the same number of building points you would get if you were up against an AI city.

In any case, it's irrelevant in the present situation. This is the first turn after you made a Declaration of War. None of the Gascony armies can attack this turn, all you can do is move into position.

B) As stated above, you must fight the garrison.

C) Definitely. People do not have to move themselves, it's just an option that's available to them. The Chancellor can do everyone's moves for them if they wish.

On another note, I would like questions like these to be public. These are exactly the kinds of things that the Test Game is designed to deal with. Roleplaying, secrecy, winning, and losing all take a back seat in this game to ironing out the rules and making sure everything works properly and people understand how to play. I think compromising a little secrecy in the Test Game is worth it to make the real game better.

With your permission, I would like to post these PMs in the OOC thread.

[Privateerkev]

I have another question regarding Chancellor moves. This won't be much of an issue for me but my Anjou colleuges would want to know this.

1.) We are allowed to make our moves with our private armies in the 24 hour window.

2.) The Chancellor can move our stuff if we don't give orders.

3.) We can ask the Chancellor to move our stuff so it does not get seen when people download.

So my question is, if we tell the Chancellor to move our private army, is he doing it IC or OOC?

If Ramses doesn't want Gascony to know he is headed south, can he ask GH to make his move for him? And if GH does, does GH have IC knowledge of that move? And if GH does know IC, can he just refuse? Basically treat it as if Ramses did not submit the orders on time?

Please let me know if I am not being clear.

*edit*

Looking at this again, cleared part of that up:

The CHANCELLOR may move any avatar or army that has not been moved in this way as he best sees fit, including moves that result in battles, except that he cannot move a player’s avatar, Private/Royal Army, garrison units, or fort units in any manner that player has expressly prohibited.

So my new question is, if I ask the player playing the Chancellor to move my army,

A. does he know IC?

B. can he move the army how he wants or refuse?

[TinCow]

He does it OOC. The Chancellor essentially has two roles: his IC powers, and his OOC game management. Sometimes the two mix, sometimes they don't. If his actions mesh well with the plot, then you can role-play them as him having some influence in them if you want (such as Chancellor exiling someone to build watchtowers). If his actions make no sense IC, then you can just ignore them and pretend they were done as part of his OOC role (such as moving his own enemy to take one of his cities).

This happened plenty of times in KOTR, such as when I was Mandorf, who was Heinrich's most bitter opponent, but I helped GH declare war on the Pope and make moves that Mandorf hated. The same for Ituralde, who actively collaborated in his own assassination.

[Privateerkev]

He does it OOC. The Chancellor essentially has two roles: his IC powers, and his OOC game management. Sometimes the two mix, sometimes they don't. If his actions mesh well with the plot, then you can role-play them as him having some influence in them if you want (such as Chancellor exiling someone to build watchtowers). If his actions make no sense IC, then you can just ignore them and pretend they were done as part of his OOC role (such as moving his own enemy to take one of his cities).

Thanks for clearing that up. It helps to know what IC powers the Chancellor has. He's already spoken IC of moving the King somewhere he didn't want to go. So I wanted to know what he could actually do.

So, essentially you have 3 options for moving your private/royal army.

1.) move it yourself in the 24 hour window but people can see if they download after you upload.

2.) ask the Chancellor IC to move you. If your characters like each other, he'll do what you want.

3.) ask the player who is the Chancellor OOC to move you. If your characters don't like each other, the player will still comply with your wishes.

More questions:

A.) If your avatar is in a stack of troops but it is not a legal army, then the Chancellor can disband the troops but can not move the stack because of the "can't move avatar against player will" rule?

B.) If you have a stack of troops, but no avatar in them, and not in a settlement/fort, then the Chancellor can do anything he wants right? Move em, disband em, send them to auto-resolve death, ect...

[TinCow]

A.) If your avatar is in a stack of troops but it is not a legal army, then the Chancellor can disband the troops but can not move the stack because of the "can't move avatar against player will" rule?

B.) If you have a stack of troops, but no avatar in them, and not in a settlement/fort, then the Chancellor can do anything he wants right? Move em, disband em, send them to auto-resolve death, ect...

A) Refer to Rule 1.4:

The CHANCELLOR may move any avatar or army that has not been moved in this way as he best sees fit, including moves that result in battles, except that he cannot move a player’s avatar, Private/Royal Army, garrison units, or fort units in any manner that player has expressly prohibited.

If you haven't moved your avatar and haven't given orders restricting how your avatar can be moved, the Chancellor can do whatever he wants with you. This includes Private/Royal Armies. If you aren't going to move yourself and don't want the Chancellor to be able to do what he wants with your force, you need to speak up.

Essentially the rules are the same as in KOTR, but we are giving people more power over their own avatars and armies. However, because this places an added burden on the Chancellor to keep up with these orders, it is the complete responsibility of the individual players to make sure they either move themselves or properly inform the Chancellor by posting the appropriate orders. If you do not do either of these things, you have only yourself to blame if your avatar/army is moved in a way that you don't like.

B) Correct, unless it is a Private/Royal Army and orders have been posted that restrict its movement. Private/Royal Armies without commanders cannot be moved by anyone but the Chancellor, but the Chancellor still can't move them in a way that has been specifically prohibited in the orders.

I want to emphasize this again: this game has the potential to place a heavy burden on the person playing the Chancellor. In order to make this game playable, the burden is on the individual players to submit their orders properly if they do not want to leave everything up to the Chancellor's whims. You MUST post these orders in your post in the Status and Orders Thread.

A game turn is designed to operate most efficiently when played as follows:
1) End turn report/summary (can be brief) and new save game is posted by Chancellor. Chancellor does not do ANYTHING in the new turn yet.
2) 24 hour period for everyone to download the save and do whatever they want with their own avatar/armies. Chancellor can extend this time if he wants.
3) When the time is up, the Chancellor takes the save and plays out the rest of the turn according to his wishes. He looks ONLY at the Status and Orders Thread to determine what restrictions are on him for this phase. If something is not in the Status and Orders Thread, he is free to do what he pleases as long as it is allowed by the rules. When completed, return to #1 and repeat.