Question regarding the KH

[Maion Maroneios]

yeah i agree with your 5th post. That's why i never play with KH, because i could never justify their existance

Yep, that's one of the many reasons I prefer the Mekedones

[Teleklos Archelaou]

1. Role play as KH in a way that simulates the natural friction between the competing components (e.g., don't let Athenians control Peloponnesian troops, don't let Rhodes control Athenian ones, or allow it only rarely, if another Spartan or Athenian general accompanies their own soldiers, etc.).
2. Play as KH and don't worry about it.
3. Don't play as KH.

If you think we are going to have no factions at all representing Athens or Sparta or Rhodes or any such cities, you are mistaken. Does the fact that you think the alliance would have fallen apart after they defeated the Macedonians and that the would not have been able to actually hold an "empire" (even a small "empire") mean that any other faction that might not have been able to hold one should not be included either? It sounds to me like that is the case. I would think either Gallic faction, the Casse, the Sabaeans, the Sweboz, the Getai, the Lusitanians, the Sakae, the Epeirotes, and the Macedonians all would be dropped then too - because none of them post-272BC were able to conquer and hold a substantial one as far as I know. That is not the only requirement we have in determining which groups are worth of being a faction. We have been over this one quite a lot actually - numerous threads.

[Dhampir]

I think playing as KH is more fun because cooperation and conquest is rather ahistorical with them. It allows for excellent roleplaying/alternate history possibilities.

[Maion Maroneios]

1. Role play as KH in a way that simulates the natural friction between the competing components (e.g., don't let Athenians control Peloponnesian troops, don't let Rhodes control Athenian ones, or allow it only rarely, if another Spartan or Athenian general accompanies their own soldiers, etc.).
2. Play as KH and don't worry about it.
3. Don't play as KH.

If you think we are going to have no factions at all representing Athens or Sparta or Rhodes or any such cities, you are mistaken. Does the fact that you think the alliance would have fallen apart after they defeated the Macedonians and that the would not have been able to actually hold an "empire" (even a small "empire") mean that any other faction that might not have been able to hold one should not be included either? It sounds to me like that is the case. I would think either Gallic faction, the Casse, the Sabaeans, the Sweboz, the Getai, the Lusitanians, the Sakae, the Epeirotes, and the Macedonians all would be dropped then too - because none of them post-272BC were able to conquer and hold a substantial one as far as I know. That is not the only requirement we have in determining which groups are worth of being a faction. We have been over this one quite a lot actually - numerous threads.

My friend Teleklos Archelaou, I must say that I never even thought of this. I am greek myself and thus am more than happy with having the Koinon Helenon added as a faction. My oppinion is that this alliance would historically, if they managed to throw off Macedonian hegemony, not be able to maintain themselves united and reconquer the Hellenic city-states scattered around the Mesogeios. Someone else might have another oppinion. I just stated mine hear, no misunderstandings.

[anubis88]

Yeah, no nagging ment from me either... I love playing against them

[keravnos]

1. Role play as KH in a way that simulates the natural friction between the competing components (e.g., don't let Athenians control Peloponnesian troops, don't let Rhodes control Athenian ones, or allow it only rarely, if another Spartan or Athenian general accompanies their own soldiers, etc.).
2. Play as KH and don't worry about it.
3. Don't play as KH.

If you think we are going to have no factions at all representing Athens or Sparta or Rhodes or any such cities, you are mistaken. Does the fact that you think the alliance would have fallen apart after they defeated the Macedonians and that the would not have been able to actually hold an "empire" (even a small "empire") mean that any other faction that might not have been able to hold one should not be included either? It sounds to me like that is the case. I would think either Gallic faction, the Casse, the Sabaeans, the Sweboz, the Getai, the Lusitanians, the Sakae, the Epeirotes, and the Macedonians all would be dropped then too - because none of them post-272BC were able to conquer and hold a substantial one as far as I know. That is not the only requirement we have in determining which groups are worth of being a faction. We have been over this one quite a lot actually - numerous threads.

I would have to agree. Had Chremonides' gamble succeeded, it is entirely possible that KH would remain as a united force. Reason? The big bad Makedonians over the border or the rising power of Epeiros (at that time).

Judging from past times (Athenian hegemony) or later ones (Theban hegemony) is a bit mistaken. We can't know whether it would happen again, in the exact way.

Besides, if having a united KH does bother you, how about considering a hegemony under a "favorite" city state as leader, aka either Athens or Sparta. But wait, that is why the different governments exist as such... 1-4, encompassing all we know of the way city states were governed at the time, from Sparta to Athens to even Tyrranos' governments. (lvl 4).

KH encompasses all Ionian, Dorian, Aiolian greeks both in homeland and the outer colonies, which would unite under a common threat (either Persians or Makedones) but also STAY united. Nobody says that would be easy. But it was doable. It didn't happen, but it could.

Phillipos united the greeks. That much is known. What isn't known is what would happen if Chremonides could do the same. KH is a gamble, a gamble that could work, as most of the factions of the time. It didn't but then, nobody but the Romani or Pahlavan did.

[Maion Maroneios]

Good points, Keravnos. Again, I don't agree nor disagree with anyone. But surely I never said, directly or indirectly, that the KH shouldn't be included.

[Fish-got-a-Sniper]

Well, I have a system so to speak set up but I have a few problems now also. I've established the empire's of Sparta (type 1) and Athens (type 2). Sparta controls Corinth (type 3) and Kydonia (type 1) and Athens' hegemony encompasses Chalkis (type 3) and Thermon (type 3). When the Maks attacked Pergamon, I sent the Athenian army to liberate them and established Pergamon an empire with a type 2 government and had them take Mytilene (type 3). Rhodes is by itself but is ready to take Halicarnassos if it falls to a foreign power. Each mini faction doesn't enter the others sphere of influence unless military support is needed and they are allied. I'll list my problems and questions below.

1.I would prefer if each of these mini factions were ruled by family members from their own ethnicities. Spartans rule Sparta's empire, Athenians rule Athens' empire, etc. So how common is it to get more ethnicities into the family as so far I only have Rhodians, Athenians, and Spartans.

2.I have an over abundance of Spartan family members. 1 in Crete who is there because he is adopted and has a regular bodyguard, and 4 in Sparta, three of which are undergoing the Agoge and one who is my faction leader and a great governor and an O.K. general. They all have good traits, but how can I thin their ranks or justify them governing other non type 1 provinces because at this rate, I'm going to have nothing but Spartans.

3.Is there a way I can simulate a civil war so one mini-faction could gain hegemony? I would like to have a periodic change in power such as Athens taking over Sparta and setting up type 3 governments, and maybe later have Pergamon take control (once I have a strong Ionian dynasty). But if I did this, wouldn't all troops have to be supplied from the Metropolis (besides levies and psiloi)? I can't picture the natives being to compliant to having a unit of Iphikrateans being levied for a foreign empire.

Edit:By the way, I'm in the mid 250's and I'm just waiting for either Byzantion, Hallikarnassos, Syracuse, or Taras to be taken by the Romans/lost by the Epierotes to expand any farther.

Edit2:I know I probably seem OCD about this, but when it to a Greek Roman era mod, these types of things always bugs me.

[keravnos]

@Maion, all arguments that are as reasonable and as justifiable just as yours are exactly the kind we EB members would like to see. Thank you for them.

@Fish-got-a-sniper, feel free to roleplay KH at your hearts' content. I can only say that Isokrates and others prior to the time of Phillip tried to unite the Greeks. KH tries to create a unity that would form from within not imposed from outside. However impossible that may seem in retrospect, there was always a nucleus of people who did try to make that happen. Isokrates was one, Chremonides another.

[Maion Maroneios]

@Fish-got-a-sniper:

The KH are one of the most fun faction especially for roleplaying, so there are endless ways in which you can actually make your own history unfold. I will try and answer you questions as best as possible.

1. As you know, you begin just with Spartiatai, Rhodioi and Athenaioi. FM's with other ethnicities can be obtained through marriages or adoptions. In my previous KH campaign, I had (except those three sarting ethnicities) Makedones, Euxeinoi, Kretai and Thessaloi. There are many more, I suppose, but it depends.

2. Hmmm, I would suggest you just continue playing with your FM's and if they multiply too much, you can send them to suicide missions. Not the best solution, but I don't see many other options. You can, of course, refuse any other Spartiates to marry one of your precious daughters?

3. It depends on how you would like it to happen. You see, it is very difficult to actually simulate a civil war. Your idea is good, but I don't see why bother much if you are't working on an AAR or something. If you really want to simulate one, I suggest you first find a faction that shares MIC's (sp?) with your own. I don't remember well, but I think it's Epeiros. You can then, through Force Diplomacy, give your ''rebeling'' cities to that faction and then fight to reclaim them under the leadership of the city-state you desire to take control.

Hope this helped!