Civil War at PETA?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Apparently, few or none of the PETAns would be in favor of a Philly Cheese Steak, even if it were made with:

Test Tube Meat Update: PETA 'Civil War'

In-vitro meat has gotten a lot of attention in the last few weeks, after a recent international symposium on the subject.

PETA has now jumped in on the test tube meat action. From the group's website:

"PETA is offering a $1 million prize to the contest participant able to make the first in vitro chicken meat and sell it to the public by June 30, 2012. The contestant must do both of the following:

• Produce an in vitro chicken-meat product that has a taste and texture indistinguishable from real chicken flesh to non-meat-eaters and meat-eaters alike.
• Manufacture the approved product in large enough quantities to be sold commercially, and successfully sell it at a competitive price in at least 10 states."

The New York Times, reporting on the story, quotes PETA founder, Ingrid Newkirk, as saying that the decision to sponsor the prize led to "'a near civil war in our office,' since so many PETA members are repulsed by the thought of eating animal tissue, even if no animals are killed."

Since this touches on a host of other issues (Veganism, synthetic foods etc.), rather than attaching this to the story to the cheesesteak (Manna)thread, I gave it its own.

NOTE:

PETA = People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals

NOT

People Eating Tasty Animals

as some wags would have it.

[Adrian II]

[..] many PETA members are repulsed by the thought of eating animal tissue, even if no animals are killed.

There you have it.

I have always had a lingering suspicion that vegetarianism is first and foremost an emotional issue, not political, religious, environmentalist or otherwise. I have only anecdotal evidence for this, so my case is very weak. The PETA discussion somewhat supports it, but what's in an email?

Friend of mine who is a correspondent in another European country has been a vegetarian since the age of 6 or 7. He refused to eat meat but can't remember why that was, at that age. Anyway his parents gave in to it, they stopped offering him meals with meat and my friend eventually discovered/developed an allergy for it. Nowadays vegetarianism and animal right are part and parcel of his hypochondriac outlook with which I tease him no end. He generally detests humans, prefers his cat to other company and cast his vote for the Animal Rights Party in the last elections.

This guy is totally hilarious on the phone, always raving and ranting about his pet irritations and wishing mankind and 'so-called civilization' to hell. Just yesterday we had a nice one. When I confronted him with the umptieth idiocy of his elected representatives, he cut me short saying the world was becoming too much for him and he was going to go outside and 'tend my garden'.

Coming from his mouth, it sounded like a menace.

[Mikeus Caesar]

Bah, i've never liked those damn hippies who go on and on about 'meat is murder' in the first place. I don't stop them eating rabbit food, why should they try to deny me my right to rabbit?

There you have it.

I have always had a lingering suspicion that vegetarianism is first and foremost an emotional issue, not political, religious, environmentalist or otherwise. I have only anecdotal evidence for this, so my case is very weak. The PETA discussion somewhat supports it, but what's in an email?

Friend of mine who is a correspondent in another European country has been a vegetarian since the age of 6 or 7. He refused to eat meat but can't remember why that was, at that age. Anyway his parents gave in to it, they stopped offering him meals with meat and my friend eventually discovered/developed an allergy for it. Nowadays vegetarianism and animal right are part and parcel of his hypochondriac outlook with which I tease him no end. He generally detests humans, prefers his cat to other company and cast his vote for the Animal Rights Party in the last elections.

This guy is totally hilarious on the phone, always raving and ranting about his pet irritations and wishing mankind and 'so-called civilization' to hell. Just yesterday we had a nice one. When I confronted him with the umptieth idiocy of his elected representatives, he cut me short saying the world was becoming too much for him and he was going to go outside and 'tend my garden'.

Coming from his mouth, it sounded like a menace.

I get the feeling your friend also visits furaffinity.net and has a fursuit hidden in the cupboard...

[ICantSpellDawg]

There you have it.

I have always had a lingering suspicion that vegetarianism is first and foremost an emotional issue, not political, religious, environmentalist or otherwise. I have only anecdotal evidence for this, so my case is very weak. The PETA discussion somewhat supports it, but what's in an email?

Adrian - I have yet to find any position that is not first and foremost emotional. Even the ones that are very logical seem to have this profound emotional starting point.

I asked some of my vegetarian friends - they said that they wouldn't have a problem with it. I suspect that this issue will die down when people start to realize where their tofurkey comes from.

[Adrian II]

Adrian - I have yet to find any position that is not first and foremost emotional. Even the ones that are very logical seem to have this profound emotional starting point.

I guess you're right. Just as in any good hard-boiled detective story the streets are always 'dark with something more than night' (Chandler), I suppose there is an emotional dimension to even the most mundane views. If memory serves, there has been some research into sexual attitudes of extremists, showing correlations between fascism and repressed homosexuality or violent anarchism and sexual sadism/masochism, but I imagine such ties are tenuous at best.

With regard to vegetarians, what gave me food for thought (pun intended) is that they are often disgusted by meat. When you ask them to look back and pinpoint their moment of conversion, so to speak, more often than not it started with a physical aversion which later developed into an ethical conviction. Another thing pointing in this direction is that they are often not averse to any other animal products than meat, even though many of these have been obtained by the same methods.

[Lemur]

I, for one, welcome our vat meat overlords, and I look forward with anticipation to my very first vatburger.

[rotorgun]

Tofurkey? Please enlighten me.

My friends and I discussed it and concluded that vegetarianism was an evolutionary process. As groups of early humans migrated to different areas, some of those areas had less animal poplation, therefore less animal protein was available. These groups tended to develop more of a preference for vegetables, nuts and fruits. This caused a change in the bloodtypes (so our theory goes) and this is probably where some people have had this passed down to them genetically.

My friend claims that he has to eat meat or he will actually become ill. So he reasons that there are people that are the opposite due to this evolutionary difference. I would like to see more scientific evidence, but feel that he may be right.

What do you guys think?

[Lemur]

Tofurkey? Please enlighten me.

Tofu gussied up to pretend it's turkey.

This caused a change in the bloodtypes (so our theory goes) and this is probably where some people have had this passed down to them genetically.

If that's the case, then such a difference should be detectable and prominent. Especially since there's relatively little genetic variation from human to human.

What do you guys think?

I think we have canine teeth and incisors for a darn good reason. Going completely meatless is tricky, and requires that you know what you're doing. I doubt our paleolithic ancestors were reading up on nutrition. No, I suspect that we were meant to eat meat less frequently than we do, but by gum we're meant to be omnivores, not vegetarians.

[Vladimir]

Meat made us human. Lack of meat made wolves dogs.

Science channel.

[drone]

I, for one, welcome our vat meat overlords, and I look forward with anticipation to my very first vatburger.

Probably won't be a burger, but something more along the lines of this:

[Adrian II]

What do you guys think?

That it looks like complete bollocks.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think we have canine teeth and incisors for a darn good reason. Going completely meatless is tricky, and requires that you know what you're doing. I doubt our paleolithic ancestors were reading up on nutrition. No, I suspect that we were meant to eat meat less frequently than we do, but by gum we're meant to be omnivores, not vegetarians.

Ties in with what I've read from nutritionists.


PETA is headquartered locally to me, so we get to hear a good bit about their internal antics.

E.G. One chap I was teaching in a course over at Regent University related the following. He was a delivery driver and was delivering a couple of boxes of office gear to PETA Headquarters in Norfolk. Since they're located on the river and were his last stop before lunch break, he went by a Burger King to get a Cheeseburger combo meal to eat while overlooking the river after making the delivery. When he arrived at PETA, boxes and bag lunch at hand, the PETA employee taking the delivery noted the cheeseburger meal's presence and REFUSED DELIVERY rather than accept delivery made by someone about to eat meat.

They take their veganism seriously there -- at a nearly religious level in fact. The "Civil War" was apparently a long series of intra-staff arguments that nearly came to blows. Faction One -- as long as no animal is harmed it isn't against our mission; Faction Two -- meat in any form is an inherent evil.

[Lemur]

E.G. One chap I was teaching in a course over at Regent University related the following.

You teach at Regent? dude! That's where we get all of our Justice Department new hires! Cool!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You teach at Regent? dude! That's where we get all of our Justice Department new hires! Cool!

Taught. Now under exclusive contract to KofC. They were pretty fair students for the most part, though they tend to be older than average types for the most part, at least in the evening courses. Pat's little academical village is actually carving an impressive niche for itself. Harvard on the Great Dismal it's not, but it isn't a bad school and their law school is a regional powerhouse (though a long second place to W&M).

[HoreTore]

There are two kinds of animals:

1. Humans.
2. Food.

[Redleg]

There are two kinds of animals:

1. Humans.
2. Food.

So what about the animals who eat humans for food. Are they human or animals?

[HoreTore]

So what about the animals who eat humans for food. Are they human or animals?

They're still food, as I can eat them too

But I won't eat human, hence that is the only animal which isn't food.

[Crazed Rabbit]

...I think I agree 100% with Horetore.

With regard to vegetarians, what gave me food for thought (pun intended) is that they are often disgusted by meat. When you ask them to look back and pinpoint their moment of conversion, so to speak, more often than not it started with a physical aversion which later developed into an ethical conviction. Another thing pointing in this direction is that they are often not averse to any other animal products than meat, even though many of these have been obtained by the same methods.

Hmmm, never thought about that. Very interesting.

Faction Two -- meat in any form is an inherent evil.

So, they're against eating a nutritious series of molecules and proteins? Wow, they're deep into the rabbit hole.

CR

[HoreTore]

...I think I agree 100% with Horetore.

We might actually agree with you in more than just that - as I am a hunter too. Yes, with guns

But as your mommy told you when you were younger; "Don't play with your food!". Animals are food, hence you shouldn't play with them, particularly not any sadistic games. Breed the animal(or track it down in the case of hunting), kill it instantly, chop it up, cook it and enjoy

And remember, "it will hurt my income!" isn't an excuse for treating your food badly.

[Redleg]

But I won't eat human, hence that is the only animal which isn't food.

Ah that is incorrect since humans have been known to be cannibals. That you won't eat human does not necessarily make your positon correct, since in nature all species are in fact part of the food chain.

So while I disagree with PETA in general they are correct in that all animals should be treated as humanly as possible. So I agree with you about not mistreating animals just because you can, and killing them as quickly and efficiently as possible prior to consuming them.

[Beirut]

We're meat eaters - check the teeth.

[Adrian II]

We're meat eaters - check the teeth.

Check your nipples. Do they make you a woman?

Check your opposing thumb. Does it make you an ape?

Well OK, maybe in your case..

[ICantSpellDawg]

Check your nipples. Do they make you a woman?

Check your opposing thumb. Does it make you an ape?

Well OK, maybe in your case..

Adrian, are you suggesting that we are not meant to eat meat, or merely dismantling a poorly posited argument (which happens to be true)?

You aren't suggesting that an animal/vegetable diet isn't necessary in some way to avoid deficiencies, are you?

Our anuses are a throwback to a time when we couldn't have our colons removed and replaced with a hole and ileostomy bag... Our mouths a throwback to a time when we had to eat food instead of merely have pre-processed nutrition injected directly into our bloodstream.

It is pretty scientifically clear that we benefit from an animal diet.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I sometimes feel a bit guilty eating meat.

Sometimes I wonder if people will look back on us from the future and think what we are doing is absolutedly disgusting, and be the features of horror films.

But then I think its natural since other animals eat each other, and they'd probably eat me so...

[Adrian II]

Adrian, are you suggesting that we are not meant to eat meat, or merely dismantling a poorly posited argument (which happens to be true)?

I think our behaviour is not determined by our genetic make-up or physical condition, either in sickness or in health. And even if the opposite were true, out teeth alone do not point to any particular diet. And even if they did, they would have to be part of a series of other carnivore markers such as intestinal tract length of 6-8 x body length (humans have herbivore length of 12 x body length), acidic saliva (humans= alkaline), need for dietary fiber (humans do, cannivores do not), claws instead of hands, etcetera.

You want to base an argument on biology? Then get your biology right.

We humans are opportunistic feeders. *



* P.S. A look at the Backroom alone shows that we are...

[ICantSpellDawg]

I think our behaviour is not determined by our genetic make-up or physical condition, either in sickness or in health. And even if the opposite were true, out teeth alone do not point to any particular diet. And even if they did, they would have to be part of a series of other carnivore markers such as intestinal tract length of 6-8 x body length (humans have herbivore length of 12 x body length), acidic saliva (humans= alkaline), need for dietary fiber (humans do, cannivores do not), claws instead of hands, etcetera.

You want to base an argument on biology? Then get your biology right.

We humans are opportunistic feeders. *



* P.S. A look at the Backroom alone shows that we are...

Which is it? Are we supposed to eat meat or not. Out teeth don't point to a particular diet if you discount "omnivorous" as a particular diet.

[Vladimir]

And trolls eat EVERYTHING!

[macsen rufus]

Originally Posted by Beirut
We're meat eaters - check the teeth.

We have quite a full set of tools - incisors like sheep, molars like horses... oh, and pretty much vestigial canines.

Also compare our 22-foot long intestines against full-blown carnivores (which all have short guts), then compare the relative incidence of bowel cancer. Meat eating is at best an adaptation to which we haven't finished adapting.

I'm best described as an ex-vegetarian - was 15 years in that fold, and then questioned my reasons. My prime reason was the treatment of farm stock (it was a time when factory farming/feedlot methods were still widespread), and global equity. Experience showed me my health was improving on a veggy diet too. It's not necessarily that meat-including diets are unhealthy, but that a lot of people who do eat meat, also omit other necessities. And my cooking skills improved - meat and two-veg cooking is so .... boring. But I was never in the "Meat is murder" camp.

Nowadays I'd feel ethically satisfied eating free-range organic (or wild-caught) meat - so long as the animal had had a chance to be an animal when it was alive, not just a cooped-up cage-slave. These days though, the soya industry is also pretty screwed up, so I don't depend on soya as a protein source - free-range eggs, organic milk etc etc and a realisation that most (healthy/whole) foods contain sufficient protein when part of a balanced diet yadayada. The only dietary contribution meat really makes is easy protein - as such it is a long way from necessary, and can go to excess.

But that all said, I don't think this cultured test-tube meat substitute stuff sounds at all appealing

But what really struck me was this:

indistinguishable from real chicken flesh to non-meat-eaters and meat-eaters alike.

Like, how are they supposed to know ???

[ICantSpellDawg]

I try to eat mostly vegetables and fish during the week and then really good steaks or other types of meat once or twice a week. I feel a bit better.

I try to design my meals around vegetables, instead of using meat as the center.

Animals are here to be eaten reasonably.

[Reverend Joe]

I have yet to understand why people can't accept that we have a major advantage in being able to choose whether or not to eat meat. Not a whole lot of animals have much variety in their diet, much less what humans have. We're the freakin' food kings, so we may as well enjoy it.

NOTE:

PETA = People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals

NOT

People Eating Tasty Animals

as some wags would have it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

WARNING: VERY CRUDE JOKE AHEAD.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Speaking of People for the Eating of Tasty Animals... I have always wished there was a particularly crude slang term for vagina that started with "A." Then that acronym would be truly beautiful.