Gaesatae Question

[Metalstrm]

wow, that's amazing how you just twisted the account to fit your purposes. you quote two sections from a passage like its one quotation. here's the actual text, from Polybius 2.30, part left out by metalstrm in bold:

I wonder why you'd leave out that bit? Hmm...

No. I did separate them, and I had no intention of twisting anything, like you are saying, both directly and by implication. Read below.

A few things to notice:

1) The Romans refused to engage in hand-to-hand combat at first, but seem to have kept up a longer-than-usual period of ranged attack (see "at length"), perhaps out of hesitation to engage the gaesatae, who were, in fact, intimidating. The only other times I know of that the Romans used prolonged ranged fire to break an enemy was in Vulso's campaign against the Galatians and after denuding the Seleucid phalanx of its flanks at Magnesia.

2) not very helpful for your case to include that mention of the rage-filled Gaesatae rushing wildly and suicidally into the ranks of the Roman army. plenty of sane people do that every day. i know that when I'm in traffic jams I regularly see people leap from their cars and charge into the still-moving, oncoming lanes. yeah...anyway, some of Polybius language there is traditional language for the Gauls, but let us recall that what is traditional language for us was Polybius participating in the active shaping of how the ancient Greco-Romans understand the Gauls. All the references to passion and wildness are really directed mainly at the Gaesatae in the passage, not at the Gauls in general.

3) Also worth noting that, while Polybius says that many of the javelins struck home, he doesn't really talk about Gaesatae dying, he talks about them spending a looong time trying to run down the skirmishers, failing, returning to the ranks, taking more and more fire, and then eventually retiring into the other ranks or charging into the front lines of the waiting legions.

As far as being upset about no mentions of Gaesatae among the Galatians, get over it. Many of the leading Galatian warriors were, as far as we can tell, of the sort that we might label Gaesatae: powerful, wild warriors who preferred to fight nude and showed little regard for their own safety. There's no reason the Greeks should have known whether the front-line troops of the Galatian armies may or may not have been Gaesatae--how would they? What they did know is what they looked like and how they behaved in battle, and lo and behold, it matches really really well with what we know of the Gaesatae at Telamon. Our best depictions of what the Gaesatae might have looked like come from Egypt and Asia Minor, after all.

The part that I left out only leans towards my case, if anything. It mentions several things: 1) Some rushed the enemy madly. Something that we both know and was implied by ancient writers to be common to all Celts, but maybe especially so with the Gaesatae. I don't see how it helps your case because my case is not about them not going berserk. 2) Some retreated "faint-heartedly" (oh, where's the huge morale), even disturbing their comrades. 3) Their nakedness was a disadvantage against missiles, as common sense tells you.

As for the claim that Polybious does not mention them dying, you can safely assume that if you take a javelin to the carotid artery you will be down in a matter of seconds. The neck, upper chest, and head too for that matter. As for the other parts, I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that there exists a drug that will allow you to both fight effectively and energetically, and at the same time not feel the bite of a javelin as you tear it out of your gut with half of your abdomen hanging out. By the way, I'd expect someone like Polybious to mention it if something of the sort actually happened. It would only have added to the general Roman depiction of how barbaric a people the Celts were. The fact that he doesn't, only serves as evidence that they were nothing but ordinary men.

Back to the three points I mentioned above with respect to the part which I left out, all I can say is that I'm seeing this image of their almost-superhuman power of invincibility being worn away. Finally, my case has nothing to do with who and what the fighters at Telamon were. All I care about is the question that was posted initially, that is, where was the drug information obtained from. Hell, I'd accept it, even if you told me you were fantastically extrapolating between the gaps, but to present it as fact is something else.