Gaesatae Question

[Primative1]

They trounced my Hastati 1:4 like supermen.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

They trounced my Hastati 1:4 like supermen.

Hastati are a very weak unit. They are young relatively untrained concripted men.

[Primative1]

Hastati are a very weak unit. They are young relatively untrained concripted men.

I dont buy it tho'. I read the thread about this and thought that the guy challenging the celt's stats won the arguement (Frostwulf?).

The only historical docs that mention the G's note that they lost. Telemon etc

ps I am of Celtic origin so would like it to have been different.

[cmacq]

Please, this is from another thread...

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Not to draw too fine a point, but overall the Med types did appear to have used that term, Gaesatae, as an umbrella to denote all large groups of Keltic warriors employed by local states, paid in land and/or swag and bound by feudal obligations. Technically, after the 4tn century they appear to have been the engine or physical expression of Keltic cultural expansion in Spain, Italy, the Balkans, and Anatolia. Now, when I write Gaesatae I'm not implying the near 'Naked Fanatics (shock troops).' While the fanatics appear as companies among the ranks of Gaesatae, they did not define the Order or Class, per se.

As far as EB is concerned, the game seems to have it right, as only a relatively small element of most Keltic field formations consist of the 'Naked Fanatics.' To me its a case of the Rose by another name; or the numbers are right so it doesn't matter.

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I don't understand why this topic returns so often? Also, the translations of Polybius used above are actually not all that good. And I will not address the drug issue as I do not deal well with fantasy.

[Primative1]

Do the Casse have a naked, Blue woad fanatic?

[Metalstrm]

Please, this is from another thread...

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Not to draw too fine a point, but overall the Med types did appear to have used that term, Gaesatae, as an umbrella to denote all large groups of Keltic warriors employed by local states, paid in land and/or swag and bound by feudal obligations. Technically, after the 4tn century they appear to have been the engine or physical expression of Keltic cultural expansion in Spain, Italy, the Balkans, and Anatolia. Now, when I write Gaesatae I'm not implying the near 'Naked Fanatics (shock troops).' While the fanatics appear as companies among the ranks of Gaesatae, they did not define the Order or Class, per se.

As far as EB is concerned, the game seems to have it right, as only a relatively small element of most Keltic field formations consist of the 'Naked Fanatics.' To me its a case of the Rose by another name; or the numbers are right so it doesn't matter.

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I don't understand why this topic returns so often? Also, the translations of Polybius used above are actually not all that good. And I will not address the drug issue as I do not deal well with fantasy.

I guess because the unit as a whole is quite esoteric in nature and the fact that the drug claim is unsubstantiated does not help it... Especially for inquisitive people (who happen to gravitate towards mods like these).

[Primative1]

I edit them to 1 hit point, dont like having to kill someone twice.

[cmacq]

Right, one may note that there have been a number of cultures that understood the importance of sociological warfare. On the battlefield with confusion, noise, and spectacle the Kelts seemed particularly adept at employing this technique as an art form, to help break the enemy's will to fight, before a tassel had even begun.

No drugs.

[Primative1]

I assume you mean psychological warfare. Recent documentry proposed that they used huge trumpets to that end.

As for drugs, they have a long history, including the present day, in warfare.

[Primative1]

Lets keep it civilised & friendly people.

[craziii]

man, they got no range attacks of their own? talk about going to a fight with one arm tight behind your back.

[Primative1]

They have javelins iirc

Just too smashed to know where to throw them.

[Havok.]

Why you wanna know where do getai drugs come from? curiosity or something.....else?....lol

[paullus]

Hey listen Metalstrm, you're the one that brought up that passage and gaesatae behavior in battle, don't start acting like I'm diverting the purpose of the thread.

You said "they reacted as expected to a volley of javelins: they simply died" which we can all see from looking at the passage is the exact opposite of the truth. What is remarkable is that they didn't die. And whether part of them eventually retreated into the main body of troops or not, they apparently spent quite a while exposed to fire (like an afternoon at the park right? how long would you last butt naked under javelin fire?) and a good many of them rushed wildly into the Romans. Forgive me for correcting your mistake and including a very important part of the passage which you saw fit to omit.

You also said that rushing madly upon the enemy is a common Celtic action. But you don't really get that sort of essentialization of Celtic behavior by the Greeks until later than Telamon and Polybius. Celts/Galatai are supposed to be less organized, ferocious fighters, but you're essentializing the Celts in a way that even the ancients didn't do, not in histories at least.

edit: sheesh y'all post quickly. Lobf, I don't see why I have to deal with the drugs issue, I was addressing a particular post. I'm not a Celtic expert, someone has already noted that the use of drugs of some sort is a very common part of contemporary discourse about the Celts, so it likely has a basis in something (though of what era I don't know). That's all I know.

[lobf]

Hey listen Metalstrm, you're the one that brought up that passage and gaesatae behavior in battle, don't start acting like I'm diverting the purpose of the thread.

You said "they reacted as expected to a volley of javelins: they simply died" which we can all see from looking at the passage is the exact opposite of the truth. What is remarkable is that they didn't die. And whether part of them eventually retreated into the main body of troops or not, they apparently spent quite a while exposed to fire (like an afternoon at the park right? how long would you last butt naked under javelin fire?) and a good many of them rushed wildly into the Romans. Forgive me for correcting your mistake and including a very important part of the passage which you saw fit to omit.

You also said that rushing madly upon the enemy is a common Celtic action. But you don't really get that sort of essentialization of Celtic behavior by the Greeks until later than Telamon and Polybius. Celts/Galatai are supposed to be less organized, ferocious fighters, but you're essentializing the Celts in a way that even the ancients didn't do, not in histories at least.

Again, this is all irrelevant to the original question.

[paullus]

haha, i like how you jump on me when i'm replying to someone else's post. very decent of you, bud.

[Primative1]

Lets not fight over naked men, leave that to the ladies.

[lobf]

haha, i like how you jump on me when i'm replying to someone else's post. very decent of you, bud.

I'm not jumping on you. It is not an insult to say something is irrelevant to a discussion.

You just seem to be missing the point. He posted a description of the Gaesatae and noted the lack of drug references. You began to argue over his alleged selective quoting. My point is that all your proof for how badass they were doesn't answer whether or not they did drugs.

[Primative1]

They probably got pissed or stoned, like modern soldiers.

[Metalstrm]

Ok Paullus, first of all don't take it personally.

Secondly, I honestly did not include that part of the text for the reason you claimed before.

And I did not say I believed that Celts were a disorderly mass. I think I made it clear enough when I said that many of the writers (Romans) tried their best to give the Celts a barbaric nature. I'm not a Roman writer

Now, it's physically impossible not to die if struck by a javelin in the correct place. Drugs or no drugs. Arms and legs can do with some abuse, but not the chest. I would even go as far as saying a gut wound would immediately incapacitate you. And technically, in that part Polybius mentions neither that they died after being hit, nor that they lived. We can safely assume that those that remained alive only did so by hiding behind their large shields. I think that's plausible enough, isn't it?

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Hastati are a very weak unit. They are young relatively untrained concripted men.

I like to have an exotic inf unit in my Seleukid armies, originally I was planning on one of those Elite Thraikon Rhomba wielding noblemen units(I thought the 2 handed weapon was the Falx though?). But now I have tried a custom battle with these against the Galatian Wild Men that I can also now build.

On huge setting, medium difficulty, the 120 Galations wooped the 160 well armoured Elite Thraikons. I only let the Galations I was controlling get off 1 volley of Javs. The ground was flat, straight fight, no flanking, equal chevrons and upgrades.

Does this suggest that the armoured Elite Thraikons(with the double handed nasty weapon) are weaklings, or that the 2hit points of the Naked Galations gives an unfair advantage?

Anyway after the results, the Elite Thraikons are going to be replaced when I can get a few silver chevrons on my Galatian Wild Men, before they join my strongest army.

[Ludens]

Does this suggest that the armoured Elite Thraikons(with the double handed nasty weapon) are weaklings, or that the 2hit points of the Naked Galations gives an unfair advantage?

Thracian Rhomphaiaphoroi are a specialist anti-armour unit. Their huge blades are meant to smash armour, but cumbersome to wield so they are easily dodged (relatively speaking), especially when you are not weighed down by armour. Hence they don't perform well against unarmoured units, let along elite ones like the gaesatae.

[paullus]

Ludens is right. For example, I'm pretty sure the Rhomphaiaphoroi do better against, say the Seleukid elite thorakitai, than the Tindanotae do.

And as far as our representation, I don't feel like 1 HP is going to be enough. With our stat-ing, they wouldn't last quite long enough under missile fire. Missile fire is supposed to be the way to kill them, but its not supposed to be a simple task either. Rather than removing 1 HP, I might argue that the shield value is too high, because right now I think its impossible to kill them with missile volleys from the front.

[bovi]

I think its impossible to kill them with missile volleys from the front.

Certainly not, I'm massacring them with horse archers, normally they only reach the position were my skirmishing line originally stood before breaking. HA have a decent 6 attack though, but regular archers are very good against them too with twice the number of attacks at 4.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yup. One. v. one missile units don't kill much other than the most lightly armoured opponents without a shield worth mentioning (aka: akontistai; sphedonetai etc.).

However having a couple of archer units or slinger units will ensure that the enemy unit gets attacked from multiple angles --> end of your Gaesatae. It's all in the effective deployment of your skimishers; and really when it comes to that the Gaesatae or Tindanotae simply don't cut it as your super unit.

One would rather have Hypaspistai for that job.

[Elmetiacos]

Thracian Rhomphaiaphoroi are a specialist anti-armour unit. Their huge blades are meant to smash armour, but cumbersome to wield so they are easily dodged (relatively speaking), especially when you are not weighed down by armour. Hence they don't perform well against unarmoured units, let along elite ones like the gaesatae.

Be careful here - this post contains two long-held myths; firstly that the way to use a two handed weapon is to swing it around over your head, like the villain in a "teen slasher" horror film and secondly that armour slows movement. Check out various websites of organisations that build their own armour and weapons to fight with, such as ARMA. Most aren't concerned with the Roman era, but the same facts apply.

[Hax]

I've wore chainmail.

No, it doesn't exactly slow your movement, but it tires you faster.

[russia almighty]

^Same, plus scale.

All the weight is on your shoulders; a belt helps reduce it somewhat, but, it can't beat full plate.