Gaesatae Question

[Primative1]

I edit them to 1 hit point, dont like having to kill someone twice.

[lobf]

wow, that's amazing how you just twisted the account to fit your purposes. you quote two sections from a passage like its one quotation. here's the actual text, from Polybius 2.30, part left out by metalstrm in bold

snip

You didn't address the drugs issue.

[cmacq]

Right, one may note that there have been a number of cultures that understood the importance of sociological warfare. On the battlefield with confusion, noise, and spectacle the Kelts seemed particularly adept at employing this technique as an art form, to help break the enemy's will to fight, before a tassel had even begun.

No drugs.

[paullus]

Hey listen Metalstrm, you're the one that brought up that passage and gaesatae behavior in battle, don't start acting like I'm diverting the purpose of the thread.

You said "they reacted as expected to a volley of javelins: they simply died" which we can all see from looking at the passage is the exact opposite of the truth. What is remarkable is that they didn't die. And whether part of them eventually retreated into the main body of troops or not, they apparently spent quite a while exposed to fire (like an afternoon at the park right? how long would you last butt naked under javelin fire?) and a good many of them rushed wildly into the Romans. Forgive me for correcting your mistake and including a very important part of the passage which you saw fit to omit.

You also said that rushing madly upon the enemy is a common Celtic action. But you don't really get that sort of essentialization of Celtic behavior by the Greeks until later than Telamon and Polybius. Celts/Galatai are supposed to be less organized, ferocious fighters, but you're essentializing the Celts in a way that even the ancients didn't do, not in histories at least.

edit: sheesh y'all post quickly. Lobf, I don't see why I have to deal with the drugs issue, I was addressing a particular post. I'm not a Celtic expert, someone has already noted that the use of drugs of some sort is a very common part of contemporary discourse about the Celts, so it likely has a basis in something (though of what era I don't know). That's all I know.

[Primative1]

I assume you mean psychological warfare. Recent documentry proposed that they used huge trumpets to that end.

As for drugs, they have a long history, including the present day, in warfare.

[Primative1]

Lets keep it civilised & friendly people.

[lobf]

Hey listen Metalstrm, you're the one that brought up that passage and gaesatae behavior in battle, don't start acting like I'm diverting the purpose of the thread.

You said "they reacted as expected to a volley of javelins: they simply died" which we can all see from looking at the passage is the exact opposite of the truth. What is remarkable is that they didn't die. And whether part of them eventually retreated into the main body of troops or not, they apparently spent quite a while exposed to fire (like an afternoon at the park right? how long would you last butt naked under javelin fire?) and a good many of them rushed wildly into the Romans. Forgive me for correcting your mistake and including a very important part of the passage which you saw fit to omit.

You also said that rushing madly upon the enemy is a common Celtic action. But you don't really get that sort of essentialization of Celtic behavior by the Greeks until later than Telamon and Polybius. Celts/Galatai are supposed to be less organized, ferocious fighters, but you're essentializing the Celts in a way that even the ancients didn't do, not in histories at least.

Again, this is all irrelevant to the original question.

[paullus]

haha, i like how you jump on me when i'm replying to someone else's post. very decent of you, bud.

[Primative1]

Lets not fight over naked men, leave that to the ladies.

[lobf]

haha, i like how you jump on me when i'm replying to someone else's post. very decent of you, bud.

I'm not jumping on you. It is not an insult to say something is irrelevant to a discussion.

You just seem to be missing the point. He posted a description of the Gaesatae and noted the lack of drug references. You began to argue over his alleged selective quoting. My point is that all your proof for how badass they were doesn't answer whether or not they did drugs.

[Metalstrm]

Ok Paullus, first of all don't take it personally.

Secondly, I honestly did not include that part of the text for the reason you claimed before.

And I did not say I believed that Celts were a disorderly mass. I think I made it clear enough when I said that many of the writers (Romans) tried their best to give the Celts a barbaric nature. I'm not a Roman writer

Now, it's physically impossible not to die if struck by a javelin in the correct place. Drugs or no drugs. Arms and legs can do with some abuse, but not the chest. I would even go as far as saying a gut wound would immediately incapacitate you. And technically, in that part Polybius mentions neither that they died after being hit, nor that they lived. We can safely assume that those that remained alive only did so by hiding behind their large shields. I think that's plausible enough, isn't it?

[Primative1]

They probably got pissed or stoned, like modern soldiers.

[Metalstrm]

They probably got pissed or stoned, like modern soldiers.

Something like that is probably true. It was noted that they liked their alcohol...

As for the berserk nature, I'd attribute it to their pre-battle religious frenzy.

[craziii]

man, they got no range attacks of their own? talk about going to a fight with one arm tight behind your back.

[Primative1]

They have javelins iirc

Just too smashed to know where to throw them.

[Primative1]

[QUOTE=Metalstrm]Something like that is probably true. It was noted that they liked their alcohol.../QUOTE]

I remember reading somewhere that they loved wine and traded for it big time.

[cmacq]

There are some problems with the Paton translation (too many words unrelated to the text). It may prove little help to cite Polybius if the translation is not that good. While my rendering may not be perfect, it may be a bit closer that the other two.

Polybius’ Histories, chapter 29, book 2, line 7-9.

εκπλὑκτικὑ δ᾿ ὑν και τὀν γυμνὀν προεστὀτὀν ανδρὀν ηὑ τ᾿ επιπηανεια και κινὑσισ· ηὀσ αν διαπηεροντὀν ταισ ακμαισ και τοισ ειδεσι, παντεσ δ᾿ ηοι τασ πρὀτασ κατεψηοντεσ σπειρασ ψηρυσοισ μανιακαισ και περιψηειροισ ὑσαν κατακεκοσμὑμενοι, προσ ηα βλεποντεσ ηοι Ρηὀμαιοι τα μεν εχεπλὑττοντο· τα δ᾿ ηυπο τὑσ του λυσιτελουσ ελπιδοσ αγομενοι διπλασιὀσ παρὀχυνοντο προσ τον.

my rendering
Shocking were the gestures and gyrations of unclad warriors in the front ranks, upon which were expressed chiseled-forms, and foremost amongst these men were sowed those wearing only gold torcs and armlets. The Romans whom witnessed this were unnerved by the commotion, yet spurred on to action by redoubled expectations of the plunder due.

Paton Translation
Very terrifying too were the appearance and the gestures of the naked warriors in front, all in the prime of life, and finely built men, and all in the leading companies richly adorned with gold torques and armlets. The sight of them indeed dismayed the Romans, but at the same time the prospect of winning such spoils made them twice as keen for the fight.

E. S. Shuckburgh Translation
Not less terrifying was the appearance and rapid movement of the naked warriors in the van, which indicated men in the prime of their strength and beauty: while all the warriors in the front ranks were richly adorned with gold necklaces and bracelets. These sights certainly dismayed the Romans; still the hope they gave of a profitable victory redoubled their eagerness for the battle.

[paullus]

well, here's what a couple of us have found out:

1) Decorated lead plates or cauldrons showing apparent drug use. Ranika referred to several, the only thing I know of that might depict such a thing is one scene on the Gundestrep cauldron, but I'm not a Celtic expert, so that may not be what the scene depicts, and there may be other depictions I've never seen. Cmacq or someone else with more knowledge of Celtic finds, any thoughts?

2) References in oral tradition to drug use by warriors, conjectured to be a possibility for ancient warriors with berserker tendencies, like the Gaesatae.

3) Traces of drugs in bog burials and various grave good drinking vessels. Most interestingly, the Grauballe man (a bog find, presumably executed) had taken a last meal with sufficiently large quantities of the hallucinogenic drug ergot to put the man into a stupor or perhaps a coma. Does not seem to be an instance of drug-taking for warfare, but drug-taking to dull pain for ritual sacrifice. Perhaps smaller doses could be used as pain-killer in battle?
See: Helbaek, H. (1950). Tollund mandens didste maaltid. Aarbøger for Nordisk Oldkyndighed og Histoorie, 311-41.
Helbaek. (1958). Grauballemandens Sidste Maltid. KUML. 1958: 83-116.

Looking at that, I agree with Abou, who suggested to me that the description express the possibility of some form of drug use by the champions of the Gaesatae. Back when a lot of EB descriptions were first written, the style was different from what we use these days. While I think the writing may have been higher quality, the descriptions tended not to express possibilities and places where we're making guesses. Those sorts of things are being and will be addressed as we work on EB2.

[cmacq]

Bravo, I like that champions of the Gaesatae. Given the nature and purpose of this order, its either that they were the champions, or the fodder of the Gaesatae. Personally, I try to stay away from the drug issue, as it seems to provoke more curiosity from the tonic crazed moderns than an interest in the ancients. In truth many of these were of duel use. I might suggest that this issue is in part born from rationalization, primarily foisted on a trusting public by some educators, with a need to legitimize a mighty hankering for unsaid substances? I simply classify the naked fanatics under my; Human Nature Rule Number Three.

Never underestimate the power of Stupid. If in fact they did use drugs before battle, this serves only to bring my Rule Number Three into sharp relief.

[paullus]

You know, I agree. But as I've said, I'm no Celtic expert, and I come from a field where, rather than eagerly trying to make out subject look wilder, we try awfully hard to imagine them as the historical personification of our dreams of rationality, intellect, and moderation. I think its possible there was some sort of drug involved, but I also think they were just a little bit pscyhoT, which those of you who watch college bball will understand.

And yes, any of the EB Celtic experts would tell you that they see the Gaesatae in EB as the warrior champions from among the Gaesatae. There were a few attempts to figure out some hiring scheme for the Gaesatae that would see a faction hiring a Gaesatae army, with a couple of the EB Gaesatae accompanied by several units of regular soldiers.

[Parallel Pain]

So yes drugs of some kind and yes they deserve their melee stats and their 2 hit points as they can and did kick butts of green troops in melee.

Good, confirmed yet again.

[cmacq]

Right,
for the EB Gaesatae, the stats, yes. As far as drug use, its a game.

As the historic counterpart, these represent relatively small groups of fanatics common within the much larger formation of Gaesatae (spearmen; the term used as the spear was the most common weapon). These fanatics seemed to have been used as psychological shock troops. Drugs used among the fanatics possible or possibly not. Drugs used among the troops of the larger Gaesatae formations, other than wine, most likely not. Remember, that the ancient Kelts believed that their soul was immortal and among some religious orders, if killed in battle they would simply be reborn into another life. Those who were convinced that their soul would live forever and that if killed they would be reborn in an instant were indeed these naked fanatics. Most likely they were naked to demonstrate the last full measure of their devotion, which in turn would scare the holy B-jesus out of their enemy. More so, if their enemy understood that they were not drugged. Yes, yet another...


...this is madness, moment.

[General Appo]

As far as I´m concerned, there really isn´t a problem at the moment. Paullus has admitted that the Gaesatae ddescription isn´t the best one out there, and that it´s being looked into for EB2.
As for the Gaesatae´s comabt abilities in EB, I at least don´t have a problem with them. They die pretty easily from missiles, especially javelins, but kicks normal units ass in melee. And by normal, I mean just that. Against elite units they aren´t actually all that good, a unit of Pedites Extraordinarii can pretty much defeat them all by itself. Of course, if you´re playing on VH all that changes, but hey, it´s VH, what do you expect?

[Elmetiacos]

well, here's what a couple of us have found out:

1) Decorated lead plates or cauldrons showing apparent drug use. Ranika referred to several, the only thing I know of that might depict such a thing is one scene on the Gundestrep cauldron, but I'm not a Celtic expert, so that may not be what the scene depicts, and there may be other depictions I've never seen. Cmacq or someone else with more knowledge of Celtic finds, any thoughts?

Certainly none on the Gundestrup Cauldron, but that's not a good choice, being a bit of a multi-cultural affair; there are Celtic bits, like the picture of (a rather odd looking) Cernunnos and the warrior plunged Mabinogion style, into a cauldron or vat, but there's more besides.

2) References in oral tradition to drug use by warriors, conjectured to be a possibility for ancient warriors with berserker tendencies, like the Gaesatae.

I don't think there are any 2200 year old oral traditions to rely on.

3) Traces of drugs in bog burials and various grave good drinking vessels. Most interestingly, the Grauballe man (a bog find, presumably executed) had taken a last meal with sufficiently large quantities of the hallucinogenic drug ergot to put the man into a stupor or perhaps a coma. Does not seem to be an instance of drug-taking for warfare, but drug-taking to dull pain for ritual sacrifice. Perhaps smaller doses could be used as pain-killer in battle?
See: Helbaek, H. (1950). Tollund mandens didste maaltid. Aarbøger for Nordisk Oldkyndighed og Histoorie, 311-41.
Helbaek. (1958). Grauballemandens Sidste Maltid. KUML. 1958: 83-116.

The traces of plant material found in the body's intestines have been proven to be the results of plant roots penetrating the body after burial. Please stop bringing up ergot! I'm serious here: it causes extreme pain, nightmares and is frequently fatal. It is not a "warrior drug" and I really don't want to read that some stupid kids poisoned themselves in the hope of becoming Viking berserkers...

[Metalstrm]

Thanks for the replies Paullus. That was basically what I wanted to know. I don't personally believe drugs were involved but given how you went about it, I think it's a fair addition to the game. Obviously adding that it is all hypothetical somewhere in the unit notes would have helped the cause.

As for the stats, I'm somewhat unsure of them. I think they fairly depict the gaesatae as the elite celtic unit, but the double hitpoint... I don't know, seems a bit too much at times. I think reducing the hitpoints to 1 and somehow compensating with a very good attack skill and enemy morale effects would be more accurate. But anyway, things aren't bad as they stand.

Parallel Pain, don't take stuff for granted.

[Metalstrm]

On second thought, if what Elmetiacos said is true (and I don't have a reason to doubt it), than the historical basis for the Gaesatae unit must have been somewhat rushed..

[Foot]

Regardless, all sources will be better documented in EBII. As EBI has had its final reincarnation it is foolish to divert our attention from EBII. We hope that the question has largely been answered, if not to everyone's satisfaction, then at least to a level where everyone can understand the rationale behind it.

Obviously when we conceptualise this unit for EBII we will take into account discussions like this and also return to older sources. As it is we are more heavily focused on constructing EBII than defending EBI so we hope you understand if some questions are not answered to your satisfaction. Hopefully we will be able to open up our wiki project at somepoint after EBII is released (something that I would hope for) as an encyclopedia of what we have tried to achieve.

F
O
O
T

[General Appo]

How so? He says he don´t believe they used drugs, not that he doubts their existence and prowess in battle. I don´t see what you want Paullus to do, he´s not an Celtic expert nor the guy who wrote the description or determined the stats, and he has sayed that the Gaesatae is being looked over for EB2, what more do you want him to do? Make a patch that just adds a maybe before every sentence in the Gaesatae description and possible reduce them to 1 hitpoint? You can do that yourself is it´s such a big deal that it can´t wait for EB2.

Edit: I agree with Foot, wait for EB2 until you start bashing the team, for now just try to be constructive, not say things like "they´re just a big fantasy unit".

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Hastati are a very weak unit. They are young relatively untrained concripted men.

I like to have an exotic inf unit in my Seleukid armies, originally I was planning on one of those Elite Thraikon Rhomba wielding noblemen units(I thought the 2 handed weapon was the Falx though?). But now I have tried a custom battle with these against the Galatian Wild Men that I can also now build.

On huge setting, medium difficulty, the 120 Galations wooped the 160 well armoured Elite Thraikons. I only let the Galations I was controlling get off 1 volley of Javs. The ground was flat, straight fight, no flanking, equal chevrons and upgrades.

Does this suggest that the armoured Elite Thraikons(with the double handed nasty weapon) are weaklings, or that the 2hit points of the Naked Galations gives an unfair advantage?

Anyway after the results, the Elite Thraikons are going to be replaced when I can get a few silver chevrons on my Galatian Wild Men, before they join my strongest army.

[Metalstrm]

Ok Foot, I understand completely. And thanks.

General Appo, I don't know if that is intended to me. If it is, I couldn't understand what you're trying to say with the first sentence. Secondly, I didn't want Paullus to do anything. I told him I was more or less satisfied with what he said in his last few posts in this thread, and that's basically it. The rest is all my opinion, which as far as I know, I did not impose on anyone.

And I am not bashing anyone. Doubting one's claims is far from bashing, at least within my scientific circles. And you know what, in the end it is constructive. Foot said that these discussions will be taken into consideration, so rather than calling people "inept at searching" and making other derogatory remarks, the doubters actually are helping the team form their mod.