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  1. #1

    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    Frostwulf encore une fois, moue déjà lu en déjà vu? This was not a simple question; it was in fact several simple questions, as is your nature, that have all been answered many times before. Still, I figure its my turn in the barrel.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...3&postcount=70

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    To demonstrate so that Frostwulf may better understand.
    I thank your for your posts, but I do believe I understand this situation. I am familiar with the Boii,Insubres and even the Roman allies the Cenomanes(They did turn on the Romans at one time). I have read multiple authors and have also posted on this situation, so my understanding is fine.

    I have read the texts(several times over the past year) in which you have posted here but you have repeatedly failed to answer my questions. I will ask the same questions and hopefully ask them in a way you will understand what I am after.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    Now, when I write Gaesatae I'm not implying the near 'Naked Fanatics (shock troops).' While the fanatics appear as companies among the ranks of Gaesatae, they did not define the Order or Class, per se.
    Where is it written or where are you getting your information on the difference between the 'naked fanatics' and the Gaesatae?
    Where does it say or where is your information on the "'naked fanatics' appearing among the ranks of Gaesatae"?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    As the historic counterpart, these represent relatively small groups of fanatics common within the much larger formation of Gaesatae (spearmen; the term used as the spear was the most common weapon).
    Where is it written or where did you get your information on there being a small group of fanatics among the Gaesatae?

    I think the questions I asked here are all supposition on your part as there is no writing to support what your saying. If there is please let me know where that is. Just about all the historian who write on the Gaesatae say about the same thing, they are semi-professional mercenaries. None of the historians I have read, nor anywhere in the texts I have read(this would of course include the ones you put on your post) say anything about a small group of fanatics among the Gaesatae.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos
    Returning to the Gaesatae, I can't find any evidence for drugs, either. All we have on them is that one Roman account. I'm not terribly bothered by them being tough; the only problem I have really is that when the Britons get their own version, they don't have the same stats as the Gaesatae: I see no justification for making one set of howling, naked nutters different from another, except perhaps game balance?
    I agree with you on this. Again looking at the battles the Gaesatae where involved in there is nothing at all to justify their stats with the exception of a good(not high) morale, intimidation and vulnerability to missile weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    Right,
    for the EB Gaesatae, the stats, yes.
    You agree with the stats of the Gaesatae, based on what; Clastidium, Telemon?

    @anyone
    Where can I find any information that would support the high stats for the Gaesatae? For those that point out the battle of Thermopylae in 279/8 BC you have to remember no Gaesatae was mentioned. The ones who were mentioned was the Tectosages, Trocmi, Tolistobogii and some others. Even if we were to pretend that the Gaesatae were present, this still doesn't bode well for them. While it was a narrow pass you still would have had roughly the same numbers of combatants facing off against each other. If the Gaesatae were so tough why did they get defeated so badly at Thermopylae? The Celts outnumbered the Greeks and the reason the Greeks went back home was that they were about to be flanked just as their ancestors were against the Persians. Overall the Celtic foray into Greece was a disaster for the Celts.

    Ill state as I have in other posts that the Gaesate would have the intimidation ability and the vulnerability to missiles, other then that their amour,attack rating and moral should be reduced. I base this on their performance at Clastidium and Telemon.

  2. #2
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf
    I thank your for your posts, but I do believe I understand this situation. I am familiar with the Boii,Insubres and even the Roman allies the Cenomanes(They did turn on the Romans at one time). I have read multiple authors and have also posted on this situation, so my understanding is fine.

    If your understanding is fine then I can no longer help you, and on your part there should not be a need for further questions on this topic? If indeed your understanding is not in fact fine, please read Miklos Szabo and Andre Rapin. Then get a greek copy of Polybius' Histories and translate it for yourself so that you may better understand the mistakes in the English copies you are now reading.
    Last edited by cmacq; 04-29-2008 at 02:48.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacq
    If your understanding is fine then I can no longer help you, and on your part there should not be a need for further questions on this topic? If indeed your understanding is not in fact fine, please read Miklos Szabo and Andre Rapin. Then get a greek copy of Polybius' Histories and translate it for yourself so that you may better understand the mistakes in the English copies you are now reading.
    I have read both Szabo and Rapin and no where do they support your claims. I,m not trying to insult you but I have noticed this is your way of avoiding a losing argument. I asked you some simple questions and you have chosen not to answer them. I will try once more:

    1. You claim that "As the historic counterpart, these represent relatively small groups of fanatics common within the much larger formation of Gaesatae (spearmen; the term used as the spear was the most common weapon)."

    Again I ask you where is it written any where of this? Where is it written that there was a small group of fanatics within the Gaesatae? Now either you have writings on this or you don't, you made this claim how about backing it up?

    2.You claim that the EB stats for the Gaesatae are fine, what are you basing this on?

    Nothing you have posted addresses either of these questions, you simply put down what most historians say, that the Gaesatae are mercenaries. Why don't you show me where Szabo or Rapin support your claims or anyone for that matter?

  4. #4
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    It is difficult to measure a response...

    So that I may better understand why these questions continue, can you please tell me; are you young, old, or in between? Also, what is your level of education in general terms? I assume you are a native English speaker as you use these translations of Polybius. Overall, this will greatly aid in designing a proper reply.

    I've just returned from the field, I'm very tired, have several sherd counts to record, and don't have much time, but I'll help if your questions are indeed sincere.
    Last edited by cmacq; 04-29-2008 at 04:30.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  5. #5
    Jesus Member lobf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    Pretend he's as smart as you.

  6. #6
    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    As you have it...

    Rapin

    Weaponry

    Combat Techniques


    In the 3rd century BC, the Macedonian phalanx, which succeeded those assembled by Philip of Macedon and Alexander the Great, had became an academic model for Mediterranean armies. This apparently invulnerable block several rows deep, bristling with spears, proved increasingly static due to the complex maneuvers needed for facing the enemy on all sides. The ploy the Celts adopted to confuse and destabilize this compact mass of men was the dynamic onslaught of their foot soldiers, whose effectiveness lay in the sheer force of their initial attack. The violence of this onslaught was crucial to the success of the operation and justified the need to be able to dash unimpeded into the enemy lines. The rapid expansion of the Celts into eastern Europe is sufficient proof of the success of this assault tactic, which was even effective against the heavily armed hoplite solders. However, the tactic cost many lives and much energy, and could rarely be performed more than once. Hence the cliches in battle accounts, which stress the Gauls apparent indifference to death, or their sudden despair when their frontal attack was not immediately successful.
    -------------------------------
    As this was a synthetic work, Rapin did not provide the citation for each assertion. Yet, it is clear the evidence for Rapin's claims can largely only come from Polybius and Pausanias. Thus, Rapin's claim relates to the tactics employed by some elements within the Gaesatae (from Gaulish gaesum or those of the throwing-spear) formations. Not the entire contingent. These formation-breakers were the fanatics.


    Turning to...
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Szado

    Mercenary Activity


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Although only mentioned by name once, much of this chapter is actually about the Gaesatae. This chapter points out that the Mediterranean world saw them as mercenaries, whereas they appear to have been largely landless young adult males recruited in relatively large groups.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Andreae

    The Image of the Celts in Etruscan, Greek, and Roman Art

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    In this chapter you'll note many depictions of Celt warriors as nearly naked. These are the Roman and Greek stereotypical Celt warrior, the character they most feared, none other than the battle field bogyman, or the naked fanatic; aka the formation-breakers. They were feared because, without their formations the Mediterranean type armies were not well matched.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Right, the Romans were very aware of Celtic battle field tactics (see Battle of Faesulae). Thus, at Telamon as the formation-breakers were forming up, the Latins countered with light missile infantry, so the attempt to rush the Romans and break their formation only partly materialized. If you still do not understand how this fits together you need to retranslate Polybius. With a more accurate translation all your questions should be answered.
    Last edited by cmacq; 04-29-2008 at 06:43.
    quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae

    Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    There is one encounter in which the Romans lost to a Gaulish army containing Gaesatae.

    Leading up to Telamon, the Gaesatae and crew (warriors from the Boii, Taurisci, and Insubres) apparently ambushed and defeated a force of Romans at Faesulae. 6,000 Romans were said to have died in that battle. The Roman survivors were forced to retreat atop a hill, which the Gaesatae and allies besieged until they recieved news of a large Roman force heading their way, thus causing them to head back to their homelands.

    While on their way back on that road is where get the events that lead up to the famous Telamon battle.

  8. #8
    Death and Glory TW modder Member Flying Pig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf
    I have read both Szabo and Rapin and no where do they support your claims. I,m not trying to insult you but I have noticed this is your way of avoiding a losing argument. I asked you some simple questions and you have chosen not to answer them. I will try once more:

    1. You claim that "As the historic counterpart, these represent relatively small groups of fanatics common within the much larger formation of Gaesatae (spearmen; the term used as the spear was the most common weapon)."

    Again I ask you where is it written any where of this? Where is it written that there was a small group of fanatics within the Gaesatae? Now either you have writings on this or you don't, you made this claim how about backing it up?

    2.You claim that the EB stats for the Gaesatae are fine, what are you basing this on?

    Nothing you have posted addresses either of these questions, you simply put down what most historians say, that the Gaesatae are mercenaries. Why don't you show me where Szabo or Rapin support your claims or anyone for that matter?
    Right. 1, If you have fanatics, and the word means spearmen, then obviously not all spearmen are fanatics and so some are a distinct group.

    2 is an opinion. No challenges acceptable.

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  9. #9
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    as for the 480 bc, they're certainly not in xerxes' army, but Herodotus does describe that one little tribe that migrated into Anatolia from beyond Thrace, had light hair and big bodies, and carried heavy spears. Anyone remember that? I can't find the reference on a brief search.

    Neospartan, that seems like a good summation of most of the argument. The one thing I would add is the use of drugs, which I hope we've moved past by rewriting part of the unit description.

    edit: just for fun...an etruscan gaesatus merc?

    Last edited by paullus; 05-02-2008 at 18:53.
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  10. #10
    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    Quote Originally Posted by paullus
    as for the 480 bc, they're certainly not in xerxes' army, but Herodotus does describe that one little tribe that migrated into Anatolia from beyond Thrace, had light hair and big bodies, and carried heavy spears. Anyone remember that? I can't find the reference on a brief search.
    The Phrygians? The Cimmerians? A lot of people in earlier decades fell down the big trapdoor of pseudo-science, assuming that "Cimmerian" must be related to "Cymru" and so they were the ancestors of the Celts, but Cymru is the modern Welsh form of *Kom-mrog- meaning someone from the same country - contrast the Gaulish tribe the Allomroges, the "foreigners", who although they'd become Celts by Caesar's time were presumably regarded as having non-Gaulish origins.
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  11. #11
    AtB n00b Member chairman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gaesatae Question

    Paullus: I'm going to postulate that it is just an Etruscan, sans-clothes. The helmet is more Phrygian-Thracian which doesn't strike me as something a Gaul would wear, especially not in the Etruscan time period. Also, the sword looks more like a xiphos or kopis weapon based on the handle and the way he holds it. I think the shield is just an aspis that is in perspective, making it look taller than wide, given the angle. He is also wearing Greek style greaves, which would seem strange even on a mercanary if he was Gallic. Also, AFAIK, alot of Etruscan art show men wearing very little clothing, except for a cloak, like this guy. I think it was an aesthetic choice by the artists rather than an accurate reflection of RL, similar to the nude pezhetairoi and other greeks on the Alexander Sarcophogus (sp?).

    That's just my opinion.

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