If a Battle is Unwinnable, What Do You Do?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

So you see trouble coming, suffer defeats, the AI has no skirmisher killing cavalry, and so you build a load of 1st level troops like Velites? Implausible to me.

What I mean is that these velites could have existed as garrisons before the enemy assault. The enemy often rapidly launches an attack before anybody has chance to train many units or gather a decent size force.

[Quirinus]

AI advanced enough to field 20 units of full chosen swordsmen, no cavalry, no archers (poor army balance), and you've built a velites based army, neglected cavalry and holding infantry, which is now coordinating with the town garrison as a desperation measure? This seems a bit of a silly example to me.

Okay....... say it's the Seleucids. They have fielded a half-stack of militia hoplites (maybe with a unit of militia cavalry) and they've caught you off-guard in a town with only two horse-archer units (as Parthia).

Are you satisfied with this example, or would you like to pick some more nits off it?

[Ciaran]

I suggest not to retreat on the strategic map unless you´re pretty certain you´ll end up out of the enemies´ movement range. The reason is simple, once you´ve retreated on the strategic map you can´t use the "withdraw" option on the battlefield itself - potentially lethal for any named character, which you´ll probably be reluctant to lose. A major disadvantage, because if you use the "withdraw" button your army will draw back much further than by strategic retreat, and, if possible, into a city as well.

[RLucid]

Are you satisfied with this example, or would you like to pick some more nits off it?

In that example, I'd agree completely that you sally again & again. I just don't think it's clearly unwinnable, viewing actions over more t han just 1 turn.

Their army has no attacking potential against HA in the open field.

I do see your point about sallying entirely, remember it was me who wrote "Every situation has to be judged on the actual situation". I'm not sure you got my point, about those situations not being clearly unwinnable.

[RLucid]

I suggest not to retreat on the strategic map unless you´re pretty certain you´ll end up out of the enemies´ movement range.

That is good thinking! I have experienced cases where I've withdrawn, and then had to fight same army again, without any chance to choose ground, something that's annoying about the retreating in the game.

[Tzar469]

If I have a unit in the army that I want to keep (a general, for example), I auto-resolve. Even though the system is crap, it at least helps me keep my generals alive.

I actually haven't played many "unwinnable" battles so far; sending in 10 useless generals in one stack as a scouting party really makes things easier for my main force :D

[Celtic_Punk]

I never surrender! if its an impossible battle, and there is a rocky outcrop, or even better a cliff, ill use that and make it impossible to be surrounded and flanked, and impossible to run away!

if no natural barriers... just put my men in a circle, missiles in the middle, and phalanx circle, fight to the last man!

[Darkvicer98]

If you don't surrender you might as well take as many lives with you. However,the other day i retreated an Army of Seleucids and they suddenly all died. They moved backwards and just died.

Celtic_Punk your strategy with phalanxes is unbeatable and is what i do but it has a weakness if charged with cavalry into a space between 2 phalanxes. With the pressure of the enemy on your front and the cavalry on your rear can cause routs,the only way to help the phalanx in trouble is to get another phalanx to attend the battle but by doing this you break the circle/shape. So if the enemy have over 60 cavalry units put a phalanx behind your frontier phalanx for protection.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

Die valiantly with your loyal men as you defy evil persians amid a hail of arrows!!

THIS IS SPARTA!!

[placenik]

On sallaying out on first turn- If you have any cavalery, do it! AI always goes to regroup, and you can destroy last unit in column.

[Darkvicer98]

I find sallying out on the first turn of a siege makes the battle more harder because the AI is smarter. Also when i was Roman Julii once i had 3 units of Town Militia/Guards(whatever you call them) and the enemy had 1 Warband. I should've slaughtered them but they were defensive and fought off my 3 units,even 2/3 of my Town Guards were behind them.

[Spartan198]

Die valiantly with your loyal men as you defy evil persians amid a hail of arrows!!

THIS IS SPARTA!!

Need I say more?

[Shieldmaiden]

Need I say more?

Do it with style!

[Celt Centurion]

i slaughter the first half and get butchered by the second half which is slightly weaker than the first.

That nearly happened to me a few nights ago but I still managed a close victory.

Two things may have contributed to that.

Your missile troops were out of arrows and javelins. Without them, they just are not as formidable.

After defeating a larger stronger army, your troops may have been exhausted going up against fresh, warmed up troops.

And a third possibility might be the smaller army was better armored.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

[Celt Centurion]

Whilst I agree with you, one of the assumptions in this thread, was that you had little chance of winning. If you have lots of ranged units with some supporting troops, it is not clear that a battle is unwinnable; you actually have some kind of real army that can inflict real damage.

Every situation has to be judged on the actual situation, even if you have a superior relief force on way, that may not be much use, if you know the AI is moving even better reinforcements to the area. Though that seems rather hypothetical...

I almost always sally as soon as I'm besieged. I post archers, (usually four maniples) on the walls. I send skirmishers through the front gate facing the enemy and depending upon what type of infantry I have, through the front gate or the two sides. I also send cavalry through the side gates to flank. (sort of like the Zulu "bull's head")

Sometimes the AI is wise and they move back. Sometimes they come charging after my peltasts. When they do, my archers have a field day. When they don't, I march out a "wall" of heavy infantry. Once they are in place, one maniple of archers at a time take up behind the infantry and shoot the enemy until they run out of arrows. If enemy attacks, the other archers on the wall are providing them cover.

I keep cycling the missile units out and back in until I run out of missiles. Then I march the infantry back in, pull back the cavalry and when everybody is inside the gates, "exit battle." I get a tile telling me, "Your sally has been successful, you may leave the battle." OK. By doing this, I often destroy between 25 to 50% of an enemy army. Last night I sallied out with seven squadrons of horse archers. (first night on a parthian campaign) I ran out of arrows. I then started to simply manuver my heavy and light cavalry around and I heard an enemy soldier yell, "Head for the Hills." I let them, except for the few which my cavalry cut down. The enemy took 60% casualties and left the field. My losses were about 20 horse archers if that. Either way, missile troops, when properly protected or able to avoid hand to hand combat, can inflict high casualties on an enemy. More often than not I win on the first sally. On occasion, the enemy may last as long as three.

I've only ever lost one stone walled city, my first night playing Barbarian Invasion and I was hit by four full stacks of Goths simultaneously.

About a week ago, I played MTWII for the first time. I did not sally on the first turn and they attacked on the second. I managed to hold against two siege towers. My fire arrows did not work because it was raining like perdition. My infantry on the walls killed theirs as they came through the towers. A few got onto the walls with ladders in a remote corner. I sent a few infantry to take them down and succeeded. My archers killed their cavalry when they came close. I did not have enough infantry to attack their artillery. The clock had no time limit and I did not know how long they would stand there. I also did not want to sit there all night. I sent my empty-quivered archers and cavalry and routed their artillery winning the battle.

Back to RTW. With archers and skirmishers, you may be able to draw in and destroy an enemy. If you kill enough of them, they won't be there on the next turn.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

[Darkvicer98]

That nearly happened to me a few nights ago but I still managed a close victory.

Two things may have contributed to that.

Your missile troops were out of arrows and javelins. Without them, they just are not as formidable.

After defeating a larger stronger army, your troops may have been exhausted going up against fresh, warmed up troops.

And a third possibility might be the smaller army was better armored.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

They were exhausted and were going up against fresh troops. I still had slingers but they didn't help much.

[Flying Pig]

On odds, the computer cannot do it. Here is what I know about the mistakes it makes:

IT thinksthat chariots are mighty, so Egypt is the most powerful faction

It thinks that light cavalry are useless

It forgets the massive advantage a defender has in a cityfight, and the small one in a field battle.

It doesn't takeinto account mass routs

I think it just does sums like:

Total Defense*hit points - Total Melee attack +charge bonus for attacker.

Then repeats, and does the same minus the charge bonus until one side dies. So, it just thinks that everyone is going to bloodily clash.

[RLucid]

I almost always sally as soon as I'm besieged. I post archers, (usually four maniples) on the walls. I send skirmishers through the front gate facing the enemy and depending upon what type of infantry I have, through the front gate or the two sides. I also send cavalry through the side gates to flank. (sort of like the Zulu "bull's head")

Hardly ever have forces like that to deploy under siege, basically because I keep my field armies mobile (and on offensive). Towns just have a basic garrison plus (somtimes) a Governor, and forts a very basic holding force. Leaving troops in small armies holding frontier towns, hasn't worked as well, due to inability to hire Mercs (which the AI frequently takes advantage of, if faction has money), and unless you do have offensive sally potential, the AI can simply starve a force out.

Generally I can relieve a siege in time, or exchange that point for another town which is more important to enemy faction.