Does the devil exist?

[Divinus Arma]

I know that I break with ordinary Christians when I say that I do not support Christian mythology. I find the "Devil" and other similar super-natural entities as distracting from the true message of God and the importance of our relationship with him.

It has no modern relevance. Our age requires a new understanding of the role of God in our lives.

[HoreTore]

I thought there was a devil in Christianinty. An angel that went against God or something like that. Haven't got to that part in the Bible yet.

IIRC, that story isn't in the bible itself...

[Sigurd]

Their is no self-aware evil. The Devil as an entity does not exist. Evil is our decision to act directly contradictory to the will of God.

You shouldn't pick and choose from Christianity.
I gather from the other thread about understanding Christianity that you believe in the entity of Jesus. If so, you need to accept the entity of Satan as it is particularly described in the same books by the same authors that Satan tempted Jesus in his fasting days and quoted scriptures. Also, evil spirits were purged from several people, spirits that knew Jesus for who he really was.

We have all heard the explanations of why God does not intervene with the cruelty of humanity. It is always, free will. Humans were given the freedom to choose to do evil or good.
For mankind to choose between evil and good and be judged accordingly, a few concepts need to be in place (that is if the concept of evil and good is universal as in Christianity).

• Firstly universal laws must be in place. Laws given by an all mighty God. Laws that you can obey or break.
• Secondly opposites must exist. There have to be good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong. Opposite forces that pull in opposite directions.
• Thirdly knowledge of what is evil and what is good. Those who exercise free will or agency need to have the knowledge of what is wrong and what is right.
• Fourth, the freedom to choose between good and evil.

[Rob The Bastard]

God is not a nice guy. Has a preference for object lessons and mass obliberations.


The Devil is not so pleasant either, but prefers deceptions and subterfuge on a less grandiose scale.

Do I truly believe?

Not sure... to many nutters down here to worry about, than to worry about the "big picture".

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You shouldn't pick and choose from Christianity.
I gather from the other thread about understanding Christianity that you believe in the entity of Jesus. If so, you need to accept the entity of Satan as it is particularly described in the same books by the same authors that Satan tempted Jesus in his fasting days and quoted scriptures. Also, evil spirits were purged from several people, spirits that knew Jesus for who he really was.

We have all heard the explanations of why God does not intervene with the cruelty of humanity. It is always, free will. Humans were given the freedom to choose to do evil or good.
For mankind to choose between evil and good and be judged accordingly, a few concepts need to be in place (that is if the concept of evil and good is universal as in Christianity).

• Firstly universal laws must be in place. Laws given by an all mighty God. Laws that you can obey or break.
• Secondly opposites must exist. There have to be good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong. Opposite forces that pull in opposite directions.
• Thirdly knowledge of what is evil and what is good. Those who exercise free will or agency need to have the knowledge of what is wrong and what is right.
• Fourth, the freedom to choose between good and evil.

Except that this whole theory breaks down because all proceeds as he has forseen regardless. If God is Omnipotent and Omnicient he CANNOT be wrong and therefore he can't "really" give you free will.

[Sigurd]

If God is Omnipotent and Omnicient he CANNOT be wrong and therefore he can't "really" give you free will.

I don't follow you logic here... care to use lay-man on me or is there some nuances in the english language that does not translate to my Norwegian programmed brain?

[LittleGrizzly]

I don't follow you logic here... care to use lay-man on me or is there some nuances in the english language that does not translate to my Norwegian programmed brain?

I think he is saying if God is all seeing and all nowing then God already nows your path/fate/future so there are no choices for you to make.

My assumption would be that even though God nows what choice you will make you are still free to make it, God just nows what choice you will make.

[atheotes]

I don't follow you logic here... care to use lay-man on me or is there some nuances in the english language that does not translate to my Norwegian programmed brain?

I think he is saying if God is all seeing and all nowing then God already nows your path/fate/future so there are no choices for you to make.

My assumption would be that even though God nows what choice you will make you are still free to make it, God just nows what choice you will make.

So God made us in such a way that we will make the "choices" that he knows we are going to make.....

[JAG]

Except that this whole theory breaks down because all proceeds as he has forseen regardless. If God is Omnipotent and Omnicient he CANNOT be wrong and therefore he can't "really" give you free will.

God would have to have created the earth and know everything, as well as being able to choose any path and have free will. Of himself and for himself, you can't be both.

Anyway, is there a devil? lol, pretty ridiculous.

[HoreTore]

Except that this whole theory breaks down because all proceeds as he has forseen regardless. If God is Omnipotent and Omnicient he CANNOT be wrong and therefore he can't "really" give you free will.

Hmmm.....

So why does he punish people then? To me it looks like he's a damn sadist

Making people do something and then punish them for it...

[ajaxfetish]

I tend to think of the devil as the universal scapegoat. It's much easier to feel good after doing bad things if we can convince ourselves that an evil entity made us do it, much harder to look our own individual dark sides squarly in the face.

Ajax

[Sigurd]

I am not going to let you theists weasel yourselves out of this one.
One of the major doctrines in Christianity (I guess we landed on this one religion in here), is that of the existence of evil.
I can’t think of any Christian denominations that does have the godhead but not Satan in its theology. And this notion that we live under a spell called fate smacks of wrong definitions of omniscience.

We had fate in our pagan beliefs and that was one of the things Christianity abolished.
I think there is room for an omniscient being to know every possible path we can end up on. Paths that change depending on what we choose on a particular turn in our life. It is this choice that God’s children are free to make.
I am not a believer in fate, but I believe that someone can predict outcomes based on knowledge, experience and perhaps manipulation. The more knowledge and experience you have the better the prediction will be. The more power and tools you have the more you can manipulate outcomes.

If I ever considered Christianity, I would not believe in a God who has names written in a book, names that will enjoy heaven or are damned to hell. It would seem pointless. It would be fate all over again. Whatever you do, you can’t change it. It has been decided for you, you can’t free yourself of this path you are on.
In Christianity there is a devil or many devils. You can’t get around it. To do so you must renounce the Bible; the very source Christianity is built upon. Take away the Bible and the card house which is Christianity tumbles to the ground.

[Flying Pig]

I have a wierd view on God/the Devil, so please nobody assassinate me!

'God' is a word people created to describe the force that created the universe, like luck which is an embodiment of random stuff going your way. The davil, thus, is as god but made to explain evil

By the way, I am an atheist.

[LittleGrizzly]

I think there is room for an omniscient being to know every possible path we can end up on. Paths that change depending on what we choose on a particular turn in our life. It is this choice that God’s children are free to make.

Im curious, do you think God nows what choices we are going to make before we make them ?

[Craterus]

How can he not?

[ajaxfetish]

I am not going to let you theists weasel yourselves out of this one.

I don't consider it a weasel issue so much. My church definitely believes in a literal Satan. But this is one of numerous points where I'm just not so orthodox as some people would like me to be.

Ajax

[Husar]

I have a wierd view on God/the Devil, so please nobody assassinate me!

'God' is a word people created to describe the force that created the universe, like luck which is an embodiment of random stuff going your way. The davil, thus, is as god but made to explain evil

By the way, I am an atheist.

Well, 'table' is a word invented to describe a device you can put things on and 'chair' is a word invented to describe a device you can sit on but I know what you mean. It does not explain a lot though.

[Papewaio]

The Devil proof of existence is just as hard as proving there is a God in the first place.

Also which evil entity is it to be? Seems to me that a lot of the Devils of a religion where the neighbours Deity of choice. Seems awfully arbitrary for a Universal Ruler who is supposed to give enough knowledge so people can make an informed willful choice...maybe just maybe the only Devil is human prejudices and the only infinite is human stupidity.

[Divinus Arma]

You shouldn't pick and choose from Christianity.
I gather from the other thread about understanding Christianity that you believe in the entity of Jesus. If so, you need to accept the entity of Satan as it is particularly described in the same books by the same authors that Satan tempted Jesus in his fasting days and quoted scriptures. Also, evil spirits were purged from several people, spirits that knew Jesus for who he really was.

We have all heard the explanations of why God does not intervene with the cruelty of humanity. It is always, free will. Humans were given the freedom to choose to do evil or good.
For mankind to choose between evil and good and be judged accordingly, a few concepts need to be in place (that is if the concept of evil and good is universal as in Christianity).

• Firstly universal laws must be in place. Laws given by an all mighty God. Laws that you can obey or break.
• Secondly opposites must exist. There have to be good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong. Opposite forces that pull in opposite directions.
• Thirdly knowledge of what is evil and what is good. Those who exercise free will or agency need to have the knowledge of what is wrong and what is right.
• Fourth, the freedom to choose between good and evil.

I don't deny the existence of the devil. I deny the existence of the devil as has been interpreted to date. I don't believe a self-aware and conscience entity exists that lives in opposite to God. The devil I recognize is one that only manifests itself in us. Without man, God still exists but the devil does not.

[Papewaio]

So DA we seem to have common ground on something.

[Divinus Arma]

Apparently so.