Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

[Spartan198]

Tetrachy

Interesting. Never seen that article before.

I know a lot, but I can humbly admit that I don't know everything.

[keravnos]

So What is your Opinion of Philip V of Macedon. Was he a Talented leader that just had alot of bad luck? was he an incompetent leader? or either one and jsut didnt really understand what he got himself into?

Very short on time, but Hammond believes that he was just crushed by a Romani senate, and then made to look the arrogant fool for it. Romans at that time searched for excuses, any excuse that would let them attack and destroy Makedonia once and for all. Even if he could defeat the Romani, the senate would send another army, then another, then another, and another still, until Makedonia was no more.

On a much uglier note, Makedonians weren't made to suffer for the loss of Perseus, not like Epeirotes did. The amount of destruction and desolation wrought upon Epeiros at 167 BCE is unimaginable. Tens of cities destroyed, a lot of them never settled again. The capital of Thesprotians' (one of 3 top of epeiros tribes/clans, the other two being Molossians and Chaonians), Gitane, being one of them.

[MeinPanzer]

Most of it is argumentum ex silentio, there is little if any evidence of mercenaries being used as phalangites. However there are many artistic representations on coins, monuments, stelai, etc. that show mercenaries with non-phalanx armaments. Thracians, cretans, galatians, etc. Bar-Kochva's Judas Maccabaeus has images I think.

Sorry, bit of a misunderstanding. I wasn't referring to mercenaries fighting in the phalanx versus fighting in their native fighting styles, I was referring to whether mercenaries provided their own arms or were provided by their employers, an issue which is tangential to the former.

[divulse123]

Ahh, sorry about that. I'm not sure if that's something that archaeology can tell us, and I'm pretty sure the literature is silent. It would be nice if we had paycheck stubs of the mercenaries like we do for Roman soldiers, where there are itemized deductions from their pay "ad victum" etc. It's an interesting idea that their employers paid them for their services and added a little stipend for rounding out their panoply. Unfortunately, my gut feels that, unless we can cite something, we can say nothing.

[paullus]

I doubt the employers would give additional pay to round out their panoply. Its more likely that they would expect them to acquire the "rounding out" pieces by means of their pay. We do, by the way, have a few pay stubs, but they're by no means as detailed as Roman pay stubs: officer so and so, 600 drachmas, soldier so and so, 200 drachmas. And that's about it.

I think the armament process might depend on the type of mercenary. A group of Pisidians and such hired by xenologoi (I'm thinking of the Sidon stelai) might be armed by the state to serve in standing mercenary units alongside men from many different nations (consider the similarity in ethnicities between the couple of name lists from Koile Syria and the ethnicities on the Sidon stelai). But I see two exceptions to this.

1. As you've pointed out, Galatians or Kretans, in those cases where they would not expect to fight in a unit with a whole bunch of other nationalities, would likely bring their own equipment, and could probably expect better treatment, as specialized troops, than the filler troops for border forts. At the same time there's a decent chance that they could be rewarded with nice equipment as part of their service, or that they could purchase equipment from their pay (especially if they were being paid as well as regular heavy inf. troops).

2. Many mercenaries were seemingly hired abroad and brought to Alexandreia. That process is described in the lead-up to Raphia, and there are indications of it in the papyri and hints at it in quite a few other bits of history. In other circumstances mercenaries might be hired in the field. A soldier recruited in Pisidia to travel to Alexandreia probably would be armed by the Ptolemies, but a soldier recruited in Pisidia by a general operating in the area would likely use his "native armament."

It'd be great if we had some really clear sources on how this could work in various times and places, but a lot of it clearly requires some inference and guesswork, so don't take what I've written above as an attempt on my part to be authoritative. And yes, divulse, securing funding is important--surely your university, like mine, needs grunt workers to teach summer courses?

[MeinPanzer]

The sources actually aren't totally silent on this issue, and for general coverage of it you can see David Whitehead, "Who Equipped Mercenary Troops in Classical Greece?" pp. 105-13 in Historia 40, 1991 and Paul McKechnie, "Greek Mercenary Troops and their Equipment" pp. 297-305 in Historia 43, 1994. These deal overwhelmingly with the case in the 4th c. BC, but there are also a few excurses on the 3rd c. BC. Unfortunately, all the literary evidence is far too vague and scattered to be able to form any consistent image of the arming of mercenaries.

For less explicit evidence, yes we have sources of information like the Alexandrian and Sidon stelae, but those two are unfortunately contradictory. The Sidon mercenaries seem to have been fairly uniformly equipped (at least when it came to thureoi and helmets), but the Alexandrian mercenaries certainly weren't and seem to have been armed in their native panoply (Galatians being the most prominent group, obviously).

That reminds me, would you happen to have information on that papyrus that Thompson mentions in Memphis under the Ptolemies which refers to a 10-drachma annual clothing stipend for Ptolemaic troops? I think it was 3rd c. BC in date, and she mentioned that it was unpublished, but that was obviously in 1988 when the book was published. I'd just like to know a little more about it and if we can tell if it refers to mercenaries or standing troops. Any idea?

[divulse123]

Sorry, I can't say anything about that. I haven't seen Thompson's book. Unfortunately there are 3/4 of a million papyri waiting to be published, and only a few hundred thousand have been so far. At the rate we're going we'll finish in a couple hundred years, assuming we do not find any more, which we do every 2 hours or so. (Glad I'm not a papyrologist). Sometimes we have to take their word for it, because the only way to interpret an unpublished papyrus is autopsy, and most of us mortals don't have the money to blow chasing them around! I'd love it if someone could answer your question though, you've got me interested.

[paullus]

I can't find it in the materials I have on hand. I'll check Thompson's book today, perhaps seeing it there can help me track it down...maybe she at least gave the collection its in?

[chomskola]

Hi all, My big question is about the difference between the germans in say RTW or EB time frame and the BI time frame. First the german tribes are not all that much distinguished I know we have the cheruscii and suebi and so on, but they dont seem too advanced in terms of technology and equipment however by the BI time frame we have huge distinct german tribes with men whose equipment is the equal of rome and even whose troops in some cases are superior in many ways, some groups have great cavalry, heavy cavalry and all that jazz, the tribes seem to occupy a huge area?? did germanic tribes simply start breeding like rabbits in those few hundred years? were they inaccurately reported by the scholars in the time of caesar and augustus? there just seems to be such a huge difference, when you compare them to say....the celts. appreciate the help before my brain explodes...hope its clear what im getting at

[russia almighty]

Metallurgy methods improved, raw material stashes were found, farming methods improved (though in some cases, not enough)


Since where on the topic, were these German "problems" near the end more true lock stock and barrel migrations, or more like ambitious chiefs/kings deciding to carve themselves an empire?

[MeinPanzer]

I can't find it in the materials I have on hand. I'll check Thompson's book today, perhaps seeing it there can help me track it down...maybe she at least gave the collection its in?

Sorry for the delay... I got ahold of the book again and the quote is as follows:

An army clothing allowance of 10 drachmas per annum is recorded in an unpublished Petrie papyrus (Sel. Box 137 = 2, cf. P. Hib. 51.3 n.); information from W. Clarysse.

Don't know where I got the 3rd c. BC date from, but anyway, there's the information.

P.S. I got your email paullus but I'm waiting until I find a particular paper that I got a hold of a while back that deals in detail with the politico-geographic situation in the Black Sea littoral at the beginning of the 3rd c. BC. It's proving harder to find among my papers than I had previously thought.

[paullus]

ooh, great, thanks for the cite...I'll try and hunt it down.

edit: P.Hib. 51.3? What is that? There are only 2 volumes of Hibeh papyri published. It makes sense that Clarysse would be the one to know it if its in the Petrie archive...I'll see if I can hunt anything down.

[Hax]

I need someone with a good knowledge of the Celtic language here.

'Plentyn tylwyth-teg, dw i'n blentyn tylwyth-teg'.

What does this mean? According to the book, it means 'Elvenchild, I am the Elven-child.'

[||Lz3||]

how did the hoplites fought in EB time frame ??


I was wondering if TW fanatic's hoplite mod was historically accurate

(hoplites fight similar to a phalanx but...whithout being an actual phalanx, they can run and do pretty much everything but they fight in a compact formation ,spears pointing to the front and not breaking their formation as the original EB hoplites do)

[General Appo]

What kind of sword is it that the Epeirote and I think Makedonian generals are using? It looks like a gigantic Kopis or Falcata, but what exactly is it? It´s incredibly cool, and my Epeiros generals slashes are just fantastic.
This be the sword I´m asking about:

[konny]

how did the hoplites fought in EB time frame ??


I was wondering if TW fanatic's hoplite mod was historically accurate

Yes and no. The rear ranks holding the spears in an unnatural angle (try to do it with the overhand grip!) is not less acurate than have them fighting as Thureophoroi without javelins. The best formation to display Hoplites would probably be the BI shieldwall.

[QuintusSertorius]

What kind of sword is it that the Epeirote and I think Makedonian generals are using? It looks like a gigantic Kopis or Falcata, but what exactly is it? It´s incredibly cool, and my Epeiros generals slashes are just fantastic.
This be the sword I´m asking about:

It's a kopis/falcata/machiara. Same as the sword used by Campanian equites and others.

[keravnos]

What kind of sword is it that the Epeirote and I think Makedonian generals are using? It looks like a gigantic Kopis or Falcata, but what exactly is it? It´s incredibly cool, and my Epeiros generals slashes are just fantastic.
This be the sword I´m asking about:

This is the sword that was selected.


It is a Long Kopis, an absolute slasher that would be used from horseback as per Xenophon.
Infantry generals would have the xiphos.

[General Appo]

Thank you. I thought it looked like a Kopis, just bigger. I guess I was right. I´m starting to think it´s the coolest weapon in the game. Truly badass.

[kambiz]

I was recently watching HBO Rome It was really good series and I really enjoyed watching it ,Hopefully they would make the third season (!?)
But a question crossed my mind regarding the Egyptians ! How much accurate is the reconstruction of the Ptolemic egypt? to me their style of dressing and court seemed more like the old egyptians !

Thanks in advance and sorry for taking your time EB historians

[johnhughthom]

The Ptolemies took on a lot of the ancient Egyptian customs, including marrying your sister...

[Irishmafia2020]

Rome has been canceled by both BBC and HBO. Their will be no third season... Although the series is entertaining, it is not renowned for its historical accuracy...

[QuintusSertorius]

Rome has been canceled by both BBC and HBO. Their will be no third season... Although the series is entertaining, it is not renowned for its historical accuracy...

Although it was still better than many other attempts as far as historical accuracy went. I think they did a much better job of portraying Republican Rome than anything previous (which always seemed to project Imperial Rome back in time).

It was cancelled because it was too expensive to make. Shooting a lot of it in Rome will do that to production costs.

There was a BBC Series called Ancient Rome: Rise and Fall of an Empire which was shot using a lot of the costumes and cast from Rome. One of the first times I've ever seen actual, accurate Polybian legionaries on film. Not a suit of lorica segmentata in sight.

[johnhughthom]

I thought Rome got a lot of small, incidental things right, the ahistoric parts of the series seem to have been changed for storyline reasons rather than any lack of knowledgs of the period.

[Hax]

Yeah, but who cares?

There's a difference between saying you will create a realistic historical show and saying that you will create a show BASED on history. If you want 100% historical accuracy, just don't watch the show.

But a question crossed my mind regarding the Egyptians ! How much accurate is the reconstruction of the Ptolemic egypt? to me their style of dressing and court seemed more like the old egyptians !

At least they look a BIT Macedonian (especially the awesome general guy). The last two things are correct though, and I have to say that Ptolemy whatever in that movie looked very Egyptian.

[General Appo]

Still, I´d have watched the series just for Mark Antony (yes I know, Marcus Antonius, sigh). Another great performance by James Purefoy.

[johnhughthom]

I have to say I agree with that, even though I knew what would happen I was still rooting for Antony.

[lobf]

Although it was still better than many other attempts as far as historical accuracy went. I think they did a much better job of portraying Republican Rome than anything previous (which always seemed to project Imperial Rome back in time).

It was cancelled because it was too expensive to make. Shooting a lot of it in Rome will do that to production costs.

Not to mention the story kind of dried up.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They killed off Vorenus. (or at least implied it)

[abou]

But a question crossed my mind regarding the Egyptians ! How much accurate is the reconstruction of the Ptolemic egypt? to me their style of dressing and court seemed more like the old egyptians !

In that sense, not very. It was a Greek/Macedonian court and so style of dress and everything would be Hellenistic. Coins had Hellenistic motifs, new city foundations would have Greek-style temples and buildings, etc. However, temples built for the Egyptian people would be built in the Egyptian style as seen in many of the sites in Upper Egypt. In fact, many of the extant temples built in the same style as that of Luxor (read: old school) were built by the Ptolemies. On these you would see the Ptolemaic king in traditional pharaonic dress and portrayed in some classical Egyptian pose. Even then the Ptolemies introduced many new architectural conventions, which are viewed as improving temple design and raising the proverbial bar.

Not to mention the story kind of dried up.

Dude, seriously, spoiler tags.

[QuintusSertorius]

I thought Rome got a lot of small, incidental things right, the ahistoric parts of the series seem to have been changed for storyline reasons rather than any lack of knowledgs of the period.

Indeed, I'd say a lot of it was creative license from the point of view of simplifying what there wasn't time to explain adequately, or simply save budget.