Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

[Praetor Diego]

I have a question about javelins. Why the javelins dissapear in the dark/middle ages?

Note: sorry for my english

[Ibrahim]

I have a question about javelins. Why the javelins dissapear in the dark/middle ages?

Note: sorry for my english

simplest way to put it: they didn't. Peltastoi units are mentioned in Byzantine sources refering to this type of weaponry.

however, it did decline and dissapear in western Europe, as to why, I dunno....rise of Knighthood
may have had to do with it, but I dunno. I know the Saxons hurled spear and javelins at norman knights in 1066 (bayeaux tapestry). same with the early Viking

among the Arabs, the predominance of northwestern Arabian styles of combat (Islam being part of the reason) meant javelins were rare there too (Uhud's account indicates association with Ethiopians or southern arabian, with few Arabs skilled in the weapon, prefering swords, spears, and arrows). that was why Hind bint utba assigned the job of killing Abbas ibn abd al-muttalib to a Ethiopian slave named wahshiy.

also, javelins were used by several African tribes up to the 1800's

that at least what I gathered. I hope someone more expert can add or correct anything I said.

[Ludens]

however, it did decline and dissapear in western Europe, as to why, I dunno....rise of Knighthood
may have had to do with it, but I dunno. I know the Saxons hurled spear and javelins at norman knights in 1066 (bayeaux tapestry). same with the early Viking

IIRC the Norman knights hurled them right back: the Norman shield was designed to protect the horse as well as the rider when making a turn after an attack. That suggest they weren't really the shock cavalry knight later became. Spaniards also used javelins from horse back during the middle ages. AFAIK they didn't really disappear until quite late in the middle ages, although they did become increasingly rare. Perhaps the widespread availability of decent armour played a part in it?

[QuintusSertorius]

I'd have thought if anything javelins would be better against armour than arrows, even if the range wasn't as great.

I think what's more noticeable is the disappearance of the javelin as precursor weapon for heavy infantry, rather than it disappearing altogether. Is it just a logistical supply thing? As in thousands of javelins are yet more resources needed and more work for armourers?

[konny]

I think what's more noticeable is the disappearance of the javelin as precursor weapon for heavy infantry, rather than it disappearing altogether. Is it just a logistical supply thing? As in thousands of javelins are yet more resources needed and more work for armourers?

It is more a point of the heavy infantry disapearing during the middle ages. That periode was marked by the dominance of the heavy cavalry. Infantry had a mere auxiliary role, such as archers, crossbowmen and later pikemen. Mediavel battles with heavy infantry fighting were usually fought by dismounted knights, what became very common during the later MAs.

When the infantry re-appeared on the battlefields from the late 13th/early 14th Century onward it was first of all as close pike formations - no way to use javelins for these men. The "precursor infantry" was re-introduced in form of the musketeers in the 15th/16th Century, but did not become the main fighting force until the late 17th/early 18th Century.

[Krusader]

While javelins weren't that frequently used in Europe during the dark/medieval ages, the exception is Iberia. Berbers used javelins frequently and the Christian kingdoms copied the fighting styles according to some sources (do remember though that "javelin cavalry" was prominent in pre-Roman Iberia too), giving rise to the Jinetes. Then we also have the Almughavars from Aragon/Catalonia. They were very prominent in the Catalan company me thinks. And yeah the Byzantines still fielded Peltastoi, but from what I recall they were phased out in the 11th century.
The Irish & Welsh also used them, even think the Vikings too at some occasions.

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm presuming people (especially poorer ones) still used javelins to hunt with throughout the Middle Ages?

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'd have thought if anything javelins would be better against armour than arrows, even if the range wasn't as great.

Not really: cross-bow. Designed for the job.

[lobf]

Not really: cross-bow. Designed for the job.

...If you can afford and maintain a crossbow, right?

[Ibrahim]

...If you can afford and maintain a crossbow, right?

once the signeur got a hold of them and gave them to you, yep. especially the Arbelest e tour (those windlass Crossbows).
that said, if they're cost is high, it didn't stop them from becoming popular.

I have my own question: I see that the Assyrians depicted thse round shields of their's as being conical. Ospry has blindly followed suite, as well as a few others. yet, for some reason, I get the feeling that what they were aiming for was a Aspis like shield with a boss (rimmed and bowled, etc). is it true that that was artistic convention to simplyfy depiction, or is there archeological evidence (i.e a shield), that has survived, to show one way or the other?

I noticed that EB has followed my opnion, but their tukul shipri are 5 centuries after the Assyrians lost their empire...

here is a picture from the reliefs (from bible history.com):

[Tellos Athenaios]

...If you can afford and maintain a crossbow, right?

Of course. But then again: an abundant supply of javelins capable of actually piercing a decent kit of armour would not have been that cheap either. At the very least it would be time-consuming.