New Ptolemaic units ?

[Barry Soteiro]

We will see those new ptolemaic units in EB2 maybe ?


1) Felt cataphract : maybe an upgrade of kleruchal cavalry ?

2) Jewish heavy infantry kleruchs ?

3) Elite Nubian : Bow + Obsidian Mace

[Watchman]

Obsidian, being for most intents and purposes glass, oughta kind of suck as a mace-head material. I do recall having seen references to Nubian basalt maces though...

[Foot]

So in the wrong forum. Moved.

Foot

[antisocialmunky]

basalt maces

Owww.

[Watchman]

Kinda low tech granted, but that doesn't really matter much with maces which are after all rather... uncomplicated weapons.

[MeinPanzer]

We will see those new ptolemaic units in EB2 maybe ?


1) Felt cataphract : maybe an upgrade of kleruchal cavalry ?

I hope not. "Felt" cataphracts (if what they were armoured with even was felt; that comes down to the meaning of "stolas") were used once in exceptional circumstances, almost certainly to protect against poisoned arrows, and even then only the vanguard of the cavalry unit, 100 out of 300 men, were equipped with this kind of defense. Historically, these have about as much right to be a unit as flaming pigs.

2) Jewish heavy infantry kleruchs ?

Based on what historical evidence? I don't think we know how Jewish klerouchoi were armed (though maybe Paul can correct me on this).

3) Elite Nubian : Bow + Obsidian Mace

What makes you think that an "elite" Nubian archer unit existed, or that their weaponry was made of anything other than wood and bronze or iron?

[paullus]

Jewish klerouchoi, where we can tell, were incorporated into other Hellenistic units. So you already have heavily armed Ioudaioi in your Ptolemaic armies, they're just in Hellenistic units.

edit: and what is this about felt-kataphraktoi in ptolemaic armies indicated by the word spole/spolas?

[MeinPanzer]

edit: and what is this about felt-kataphraktoi in ptolemaic armies indicated by the word spole/spolas?

It's not spolas, it's "stolas piletas." This is the relevant passage from Agatharchides' "On the Erythraean Sea" (numbers refer to fragments):

19. In military action the Aithiopians employ long bows but short
arrows. Instead of an iron arrowhead, one made of stone that is oval
in shape is securely attached with cords made of sinew to the tip of
the reed shaft. Their arrows are extremely sharp and smeared with
lethal poison.

20. For the war against the Aithiopians Ptolemy recruited 500
cavalrymen from Greece. To those who were to fight in the front
ranks and to be the vanguard – they were a hundred in number – he
assigned the following form of equipment. For he distributed to them
and their horses garments of felt (or perhaps quilted garments? stolas piletas), which those of that country call kasas, that conceal the whole body except for the
eyes.

My mistake on the numbers- the total number of cavalrymen was 500, not 300.

This refers to Ptolemy II's war against the Aithiopians to open the elephant hunting grounds between c.275 and 265 BC.

[marodeur]

Wanna see cataphract-guys with stolas!

[paullus]

that those of the country call kasas? interesting. sorry for misreading spolas. stolas piletas could be anything from a relatively simple felt blanket to reflect heat (and poison arrows), or perhaps a heavier, even quilted garment.

the latter sounds more likely, since its for the front and rear rankers, and so seems designed to stop missile attacks, without encumbering the horse as much as heavy mail would have done. it sounds like that sort of arming of cavalry may have continued past the original invasion, if Agatharchides could cite that they're called kasas. he may be implying, by reference to a succesful past, that horse should armored that way for a new invasion of the south.

if we end up with 9-10 open unit slots for EB2 (read: not likely) perhaps I can get these guys considered, but I kinda agree with MP that there's little to commend them any more than flaming pigs and such.

[MeinPanzer]

that those of the country call kasas? interesting. sorry for misreading spolas. stolas piletas could be anything from a relatively simple felt blanket to reflect heat (and poison arrows), or perhaps a heavier, even quilted garment.

The actual Greek for "those of the country" is "hoi kata ten choran." Duncan Head, in his article on the subject ("Ptolemy II's Felt-Armoured Cavalry," published in Slingshot two years ago, IIRC) that Xenophon referred to a Persian saddle cloth with the word "kases" and that the form "kassos" appears in Ptolemaic papyri. Stanley Burstein mentioned the probable Semitic origin of this word by comparison with the Hebrew word "kâsâh," meaning 'covered.'

the latter sounds more likely, since its for the front and rear rankers, and so seems designed to stop missile attacks, without encumbering the horse as much as heavy mail would have done.

I agree. It also seems to me that either the Ptolemies weren't capable of producing full suits of metal armour for horse as well as rider at this time or the Greek cavalrymen simply didn't have the expertise to operate properly in combat encumbered in such a manner, so this was an interesting compromise. It also shows a certain flexibility in Hellenistic armament which one doesn't find in other sources.

it sounds like that sort of arming of cavalry may have continued past the original invasion, if Agatharchides could cite that they're called kasas. he may be implying, by reference to a succesful past, that horse should armored that way for a new invasion of the south.

It seems to me that what Agatharchides says that "those in the country" refer to as "kasai" are felt robes or garments (stolai piletai), not necessarily textile armour (hence LSJ's definition of "kassos" as "a thick garment"). I think the general context of the mention (including the limited numbers) suggests that this was an anomaly worthy of note.

[paullus]

I don't see kassos anywhere in the corpus of papyri. Kassopoioi "garment makers" are attested in a series of late 2c ostraka from Koptos, which implies that the "kassos" was a word in use in Egypt during Agatharchides' time, but there's no indication that we should understand the kassopoioi as arms makers. They seem to just be an industry of garment makers, though the ostraka don't shed much light on such things.

I agree it was probably an anomoly for its time, but there's nothing prohibiting the reading of the passage as implying that it started such a tradition, rather than being a one-off. I wonder if the cavalry would have really been Greek, or if they might have been the Kappadokian cavalry contracted through Pisidia who went on the Africa campaign. They might have been more comfortable in these stolai piletai.

[Sarcasm]

Yay, a chance to contribute...



Some Makurian (Christian Nubians) heavy cavalry. Padded armour, heavy lance, 2 javelins and a straight sword (much like the Omani had). From around the 1100's.

Maybe some connection here?

[MeinPanzer]

I don't see kassos anywhere in the corpus of papyri.

According to LSJ, it's supposed to be in O.Leid. 19, but I that doesn't seem to have the word in it now that I check.

Kassopoioi "garment makers" are attested in a series of late 2c ostraka from Koptos, which implies that the "kassos" was a word in use in Egypt during Agatharchides' time, but there's no indication that we should understand the kassopoioi as arms makers. They seem to just be an industry of garment makers, though the ostraka don't shed much light on such things.

Which is why I think that in this case, "kases" is simply a generic term for a heavy garment, and not a specific type of textile armour.

I agree it was probably an anomoly for its time, but there's nothing prohibiting the reading of the passage as implying that it started such a tradition, rather than being a one-off.

Nothing prohibiting such a reading, but nothing suggesting it, either. On the other hand, the very fact that it was mentioned in such detail suggests to me that this was quite unusual.

I wonder if the cavalry would have really been Greek, or if they might have been the Kappadokian cavalry contracted through Pisidia who went on the Africa campaign. They might have been more comfortable in these stolai piletai.

I don't think Kappadokians would have been any more comfortable with such a garment than Greeks. A heavy Egyptian robe probably would have been just as alien to both, and neither seem to have had experience with caparisoned mounts at this point in history.

[Belisarius12]

a good unit for the ptol will be light hellenic swordsman like this

[Sdragon]

Sure they aren't the Karian(sp?) Warband? Their description says they served as mercs all over the place. The pic has the same distinctive square shield.

[abou]

Sure they aren't the Karian(sp?) Warband? Their description says they served as mercs all over the place. The pic has the same distinctive square shield.

Yup, that is the source for the Karian warband.

[Krusader]

Sure they aren't the Karian(sp?) Warband? Their description says they served as mercs all over the place. The pic has the same distinctive square shield.

Yup, as abou said, source for the Uazali or Karian Warband. Although Karian warband is a misnomer, as the unit is supposed to represent soldiers from the peoples of the southern Anatolian coastal areas and the word Uazali means "Warband" in Lykian as I recall.

[MeinPanzer]

Yup, that is the source for the Karian warband.

I'm curious what it is about the soldiers on the Praeneste mosaic that led the EB team to think that they were southern Anatolian?

[abou]

I'm curious what it is about the soldiers on the Praeneste mosaic that led the EB team to think that they were southern Anatolian?

I don't either, to be honest. You would have to ask Paullus as he concepted the unit and knows much more about the Nile Mosaic than anyone else on the team.

[paullus]

similar shield constructions seen in anatolia, the scorpion motif was popular in karia, and there were many karian and lykian soldiers in egypt. of course that's not like a 100 percent lock, but that's it.