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Thread: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    As the anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel approaches, it might be interesting to reflect on how far she has sunk from her ideals. This opinion piece is sobering.

    Yes, Israel is a vibrant democracy in a sea of primitivism and yes, she was founded as a statement of hope against the backdrop of wanton wickedness unseen before. Yes, she faces an implacable enemy which seeks her erasure from history - even though her allies and her resolve have made this an impossible, as well as a repulsive aspiration.

    So, utterly secure with international and internal military and economic force, democratic to a fault and with a unique history of withstanding the most evil discrimination from almost every quarter of the globe, how after sixty years has it come to this? Founded in terrorism and rebellion herself, with a remarkable ability for cold-hearted self-preservation against all odds, how can Israel so demonise the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians, however bastardised by extremists (of which Israel has plenty herself) that she perpetrates these endless acts of dehumanising wickedness?

    Of all people in the world who should understand the Palestinians, how is it that Israel behaves in this manner and will not talk?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Johann Hari: Israel is suppressing a secret it must face


    How did a Jewish state founded 60 years ago end up throwing filth at cowering Palestinians?

    When you hit your 60th birthday, most of you will guzzle down your hormone replacement therapy with a glass of champagne and wonder if you have become everything you dreamed of in your youth. In a few weeks, the state of Israel is going to have that hangover.

    She will look in the mirror and think – I have a sore back, rickety knees and a gun at my waist, but I'm still standing. Yet somewhere, she will know she is suppressing an old secret she has to face. I would love to be able to crash the birthday party with words of reassurance. Israel has given us great novelists like Amos Oz and A.B. Yehoshua, great film-makers like Joseph Cedar, great scientific research into Alzheimer's, and great dissident journalists like Amira Hass, Tom Segev and Gideon Levy to expose her own crimes.

    She has provided the one lonely spot in the Middle East where gay people are not hounded and hanged, and where women can approach equality.

    But I can't do it. Whenever I try to mouth these words, a remembered smell fills my nostrils. It is the smell of poo. Across the occupied West Bank, raw untreated sewage is pumped every day out of the Jewish settlements, along large metal pipes, straight onto Palestinian land. From there, it can enter the groundwater and the reservoirs, and become a poison.

    Standing near one of these long, stinking brown-and-yellow rivers of waste recently, the local chief medical officer, Dr Bassam Said Nadi, explained to me: "Recently there were very heavy rains, and the poo started to flow into the reservoir that provides water for this whole area. I knew that if we didn't act, people would die. We had to alert everyone not to drink the water for over a week, and distribute bottles. We were lucky it was spotted. Next time..." He shook his head in fear. This is no freak: a 2004 report by Friends of the Earth found that only six per cent of Israeli settlements adequately treat their sewage.

    Meanwhile, in order to punish the population of Gaza for voting "the wrong way", the Israeli army are not allowing past the checkpoints any replacements for the pipes and cement needed to keep the sewage system working. The result? Vast stagnant pools of waste are being held within fragile dykes across the strip, and rotting. Last March, one of them burst, drowning a nine-month-old baby and his elderly grandmother in a tsunami of human waste. The Centre on Housing Rights warns that one heavy rainfall could send 1.5m cubic metres of faeces flowing all over Gaza, causing "a humanitarian and environmental disaster of epic proportions".

    So how did it come to this? How did a Jewish state founded 60 years ago with a promise to be "a light unto the nations" end up flinging its filth at a cowering Palestinian population?

    The beginnings of an answer lie in the secret Israel has known, and suppressed, all these years. Even now, can we describe what happened 60 years ago honestly and unhysterically? The Jews who arrived in Palestine throughout the twentieth century did not come because they were cruel people who wanted to snuffle out Arabs to persecute. No: they came because they were running for their lives from a genocidal European anti-Semitism that was soon to slaughter six million of their sisters and their sons.

    They convinced themselves that Palestine was "a land without people for a people without land". I desperately wish this dream had been true. You can see traces of what might have been in Tel Aviv, a city that really was built on empty sand dunes. But most of Palestine was not empty. It was already inhabited by people who loved the land, and saw it as theirs. They were completely innocent of the long, hellish crimes against the Jews.

    When it became clear these Palestinians would not welcome becoming a minority in somebody else's country, darker plans were drawn up. Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, wrote in 1937: "The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as a war."

    So, for when the moment arrived, he helped draw up Plan Dalit. It was – as Israeli historian Ilan Pappe puts it – "a detailed description of the methods to be used to forcibly evict the people: large-scale intimidation; and laying siege to and bombarding population centres". In 1948, before the Arab armies invaded, this began to be implemented: some 800,000 people were ethnically cleansed, and Israel was built on the ruins. The people who ask angrily why the Palestinians keep longing for their old land should imagine an English version of this story. How would we react if the 30m stateless, persecuted Kurds in the world sent armies and settlers into this country to seize everything in England below Leeds, and swiftly established a free Kurdistan from which we were expelled? Wouldn't we long forever for our children to return to Cornwall and Devon and London? Would it take us only 40 years to compromise and offer to settle for just 22 per cent of what we had?

    If we are not going to be endlessly banging our heads against history, the Middle East needs to excavate 1948, and seek a solution. Any peace deal – even one where Israel dismantled the wall and agreed to return to the 1967 borders – tends to crumple on this issue. The Israelis say: if we let all three million come back, we will be outnumbered by Palestinians even within the 1967 borders, so Israel would be voted out of existence. But the Palestinians reply: if we don't have an acknowledgement of the Naqba (catastrophe), and our right under international law to the land our grandfathers fled, how can we move on?

    It seemed like an intractable problem – until, two years ago, the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research conducted the first study of the Palestinian Diaspora's desires. They found that only 10 per cent – around 300,000 people – want to return to Israel proper. Israel can accept that many (and compensate the rest) without even enduring much pain. But there has always been a strain of Israeli society that preferred violently setting its own borders, on its own terms, to talk and compromise. This weekend, the elected Hamas government offered a six-month truce that could have led to talks. The Israeli government responded within hours by blowing up a senior Hamas leader and killing a 14-year-old girl.

    Perhaps Hamas' proposals are a con; perhaps all the Arab states are lying too when they offer Israel full recognition in exchange for a roll-back to the 1967 borders; but isn't it a good idea to find out? Israel, as she gazes at her grey hairs and discreetly ignores the smell of her own stale poo pumped across Palestine, needs to ask what kind of country she wants to be in the next 60 years.


    NB: The above copy is edited to comply with forum rules on language. Click on the link to read the original article.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    NB: The above copy is edited to comply with forum rules on language. Click on the link to read the original article.
    And that language alone is enough to indicate the veracity of the article.

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    Meanwhile, in order to punish the population of Gaza for voting "the wrong way"
    Is he serious? I guess the Germans voted the wrong way too huh?
    Last edited by Vladimir; 04-30-2008 at 13:08.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    democratic to a fault
    Democratic to a fault?

    I don't consider the treatment of Vanunu to be in line with democratic ideals.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Democratic to a fault?

    I don't consider the treatment of Vanunu to be in line with democratic ideals.
    The spy.
    Last edited by Vladimir; 04-30-2008 at 13:10.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    The spy.
    Spy...?

    He's a whistleblower, and I daresay the most important whistleblower in history.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    Founded in terrorism and rebellion herself, with a remarkable ability for cold-hearted self-preservation against all odds, how can Israel so demonise the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians, however bastardised by extremists (of which Israel has plenty herself) that she perpetrates these endless acts of dehumanising wickedness?
    I think the short answer is: religion.

    The somewhat longer answer would be this. Israel was built by Socialists and secular Zionists and it was a successful modern, democratic state as long as their views prevailed. Even after the 1967 occupation of Palestinian territories, these territories were considered bargaining chips by a majority of Israelis, not rightful possessions promised to the Jews by some Prophet or mere buffer zones populated by subhumans.

    By the end of the 1970's a religiously inspired, expansionist policy took hold and Israel virtually refused to negotiate except with those nations (such as Egypt and Jordan) that were prepared to live with the fact of the occupation, albeit under protest. The occupied territories came to be regarded as land promised to Israel by the sky-God. David Ben-Gurion foresaw the horrible consequences for Israel itself and pleaded for a return of all the occupied territories apart from Jerusalem. His words were not heeded. The violence required to suppress the territories ate away at Israeli democracy, turned inward and resulted in the murder of Rabin, the last of the heroic generation, by a religious nutjob who had never done anything worthwhile for his country. I remember signing the register of condolance and speaking to an Israeli diplomat whom I knew well, and who was privately foaming at the mouth and cursing the Likud: "Why do they think we built Israel? To turn it into another ******* Pakistan!?"

    I am very pessimistic as to Israel's capacity to regenerate in this respect. I think the guy was right, the religious rot has gone deep and Israel is in serious danger of deteriorating into a sort of Jewish Pakistan, a quasi-democracy with semi-autonomous zones dominated by religious fanatics who have a hold over the political center.

    I have always pleaded for a wholesale international approach to the Middle East conflict, with negotiations involving all major global powers and all local players, resulting in a framework intended to settle all major differences. It might take ten years to get the first results, but the previous fifty have shown that peacemeal approaches are bound to fail. The reason is that as soon as one enemy is neutralized through successful negociations, religious and ethnic fanaticism always finds another 'threat' to concentrate its fear and hatred on. This goes for all sides, obviously, not just for Israel. Idiots abound on both sides in that unfortunate region.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 04-30-2008 at 13:24.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Spy...?

    He's a whistleblower, and I daresay the most important whistleblower in history.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Hyperbole, Vladimir?

    Could you perhaps enlighten me about a more important whistleblower in history...?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Good article. Nice to hear from someone who has the guts to tell the truth.
    Unto each good man a good dog

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    The violence required to suppress the territories ate away at Israeli democracy, turned inward...
    Just wanted to note this gleaming gem of truth, lest it be out-shone by the rest of that brilliant post.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Spy...?

    He's a whistleblower, and I daresay the most important whistleblower in history.
    Yet, sadly, the Norwegian gov rejected his request for asylum.
    Runes for good luck:

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut
    Good article. Nice to hear from someone who has the guts to tell the truth.
    Did you read this?

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    Yet, sadly, the Norwegian gov rejected his request for asylum.
    Yes. And the reason was political, no less. Damn conservatives...

    Hopefully, he will try again while we still have this government.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Silent Ruler Member Dîn-Heru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    And damn socialists for selling the heavy water in the first place..



    The government has had 4 years to do something about it, and if it had not been for BT dragging the case back into the limelight, they would easily have gone the rest of the term without doing something about it...

    (PS: He has apparently refiled his application, so we'll see if your faith in the current government is justified or not..) http://www.imemc.org/article/54132
    Last edited by Dîn-Heru; 05-01-2008 at 11:55.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Vanunu wasn't a spy, but he was a traitor and the Israeli government had to set an example. Vanunu was at liberty to criticise his government all he wanted, not to divulge some of its most important military secrets.

    If Vanunu had wanted to criticise Israel's nuclear program, he could have referred to the wealth of information that was already in the public domain.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    Vanunu wasn't a spy, but he was a traitor and the Israeli government had to set an example. Vanunu was at liberty to criticise his government all he wanted, not to divulge some of its most important military secrets.

    If Vanunu had wanted to criticise Israel's nuclear program, he could have referred to the wealth of information that was already in the public domain.
    A traitor? Oh blimey, that's how the German scumbags of die Weiße Rose should be treated also.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    A traitor? Oh blimey, that's how the German scumbags of die Weiße Rose should be treated also.
    The mere fact that you think there is the slightest basis for such comparisons shows that you haven't a clue.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    The mere fact that you think there is the slightest basis for such comparisons shows that you haven't a clue.
    Oh yes, the term 'traitor' is a worthless as the US dollar is nowadays. That's what the comparison shows.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Pretty much sums it up for me:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Is it art?


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  20. #20
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    Oh yes, the term 'traitor' is a worthless as the US dollar is nowadays. That's what the comparison shows.
    The term is well defined and applies to Vanunu. He violated the terms of the Dimona security clearance which he signed and he breached the trust of the nation that he worked for. And he did so for the sum of $100,000, not out of a guilty conscience.

    In his prison letters to the outside world he made detailed sketches of Dimona and wrote alongside them 'I'll fill you in on the details when I'm freed'. That's why he was put into solitary confinement. Vanunu is very lucky that he didn't get the death penalty.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    The term is well defined and applies to Vanunu. He violated the terms of the Dimona security clearance which he signed and he breached the trust of the nation that he worked for. And he did so for the sum of $100,000, not out of a guilty conscience.
    A traitor to his country, a hero to the world.

    It's not like he released top secret plans against invasion or anything like that. He revealed a bleedin' nuclear program, something that should not even exist in this world at all. He did us all a favour. Who cares if he got a few bucks for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    In his prison letters to the outside world he made detailed sketches of Dimona and wrote alongside them 'I'll fill you in on the details when I'm freed'. That's why he was put into solitary confinement. Vanunu is very lucky that he didn't get the death penalty.
    Bah. He poses no real threat to israel, and they know it. Public embarrassment is the worst he can do, and last I checked, civilized countries don't jail people for embarrassment.

    I guess if some iranian scientist releases hard proof of an iranian nuclear bomb-program tomorrow, you would cheer when he is hanged by the government, Adrian...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dîn-Heru
    (PS: He has apparently refiled his application, so we'll see if your faith in the current government is justified or not..) http://www.imemc.org/article/54132
    The immigration minister stated that if he would get a job here, he will be accepted. But to be honest, that's a lot of bull and utterly irrelevant. The immigration department abides by the laws of the land, not the whims of the politicians, as it should be(well, at least they used to work like that, after the manuela "scandal" I'm not sure anymore). And as such, they will of course accept his application. The real question is whether or not some idiot minister will play the "national security card" and throw him out again. It will be very hard to do that for anyone atm, but I wouldn't be surprised...

    (btw, not sure where you conservatives get your maths skills, but it isn't election time yet, the current government has only been in charge for 2,5 years so far )
    Last edited by HoreTore; 05-01-2008 at 19:08.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  22. #22
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    The term is well defined and applies to Vanunu. He violated the terms of the Dimona security clearance which he signed and he breached the trust of the nation that he worked for. And he did so for the sum of $100,000, not out of a guilty conscience.

    In his prison letters to the outside world he made detailed sketches of Dimona and wrote alongside them 'I'll fill you in on the details when I'm freed'. That's why he was put into solitary confinement. Vanunu is very lucky that he didn't get the death penalty.
    That it is well defined there's no doubt about; like many other terms which few nowadays pay heed to (in our belowed Europe, anyhow). Like heretic. He betrayed a country; no big deal in itself. A real traitor is a traitor against humanity; Vanunu is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    Pretty much sums it up for me:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Is it art?
    Oh, but Israel is far from clean.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    A traitor to his country, a hero to the world.
    A hero? To the entire world no less?

    Only the loony left considers him a hero, and the loony left has many worthless heroes. Mordechai Vanunu, in turn, has only loony supporters. Well alright, except Susannah York, the renowned analyst of Middle Eastern affairs. Oh, and dr Mia Farrow, professor of Political Science at Hollywood University.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Pretty much sums it up for me:


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    Is it art?
    That view can be summed up by the word bollox .

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    A hero? To the entire world no less?

    Only the loony left considers him a hero, and the loony left has many worthless heroes. Mordechai Vanunu, in turn, has only loony supporters. Well alright, except Susannah York, the renowned analyst of Middle Eastern affairs. Oh, and dr Mia Farrow, professor of Political Science at Hollywood University.
    Actually, the only ones I've ever heard call him a traitor before are our very own right-wing nutters(and I mean real nutters, they'd make the republicans look like lefties).

    Anyway Adrian, you support the notion that countries should have the right to develop nuclear bombs in complete secrecy? You don't consider it your right to know when your government is making weaponry that can wipe out the population of the earth...?

    National security can go to hell on that one. If my government is doing something like that, I see it as my bloody right to know so.

    Calling Vanunu a threat to national security is about as ridiculous as calling the guy who exposed Abu Ghraib a threat to national security. But no wait, the Abu Ghraib scandal *did* cost the lives of quite a few soldiers due to increased guerilla attacks. What Vanunu did has resulted in what? Was it "ABSOLUTELY NOT A SINGLE THING" you said? Then how on earth can it be a matter of national security if it didn't cause a single attack on israel?
    Last edited by HoreTore; 05-01-2008 at 19:30.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Actually, the only ones I've ever heard call him a traitor before are our very own right-wing nutters(and I mean real nutters, they'd make the republicans look like lefties).

    Anyway Adrian, you support the notion that countries should have the right to develop nuclear bombs in complete secrecy? You don't consider it your right to know when your government is making weaponry that can wipe out the population of the earth...?

    National security can go to hell on that one. If my government is doing something like that, I see it as my bloody right to know so.

    Calling Vanunu a threat to national security is about as ridiculous as calling the guy who exposed Abu Ghraib a threat to national security.
    The Israeli public and the outside world have been aware since the early 1960's that Israel was developing nuclear weapons. Not only has the Israeli public fully incorporated this knowledge, it has also been aware since the early 1970's of Israel's declared policy of 'nuclear opacity' which was deemed to be in its best interest at the time. And yes, Israel has every right to develop such weapons. And yes, they already helped save the country once from annihilation.

    Do you know how that came about? And if it was before or after Vanunu's revelations?
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II
    And yes, Israel has every right to develop such weapons. And yes, they already helped save the country once from annihilation.
    Ridiculous. Israel can exist perfectly well with just conventional weaponry.

    A nuclear bomb has but one single purpose: the complete destruction of civilian life. It has no other use whatsoever. Who's going to use a nuclear bomb to take out an enemy position, like a bunker? That's like shooting birds with a cannon. The only use Israel has of a nuclear bomb, is to obliterate cities like Kairo and Damascus in the event of an attack. And no, I do not consider it Israel's(or any other countries) right to blow up a million civilians.

    But what was the consequences of Vanunu's "horrible crime"...? I can't see a single thing that has happened, except embarrassment, half of which comes from the israeli governments totalitarian and despotic way of dealing with him(secret courts are a blast in a civilized court system! ).
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  28. #28
    Silent Ruler Member Dîn-Heru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    (btw, not sure where you conservatives get your maths skills, but it isn't election time yet, the current government has only been in charge for 2,5 years so far )
    Hehe, I realised that a bit later, but the decsion was made in 2004, and that was where I counted from. The only critique I found in the big papers from 2004 was a sentance from Haga, who was then in Utenrikskomiteen and Willoch.

    It was not a descision made in secret, if the current government felt so strongly about it the decision could have been overturned on day one 2,5 years ago..

    (Ps I personally could not care less about whether they let him in or not, but you should not be so quick to lambast the former government, when yours have not done anything besides maybe a few chummy words with about their concern with the Israeli ambassador..)
    Patience is the companion of wisdom.
    --St. Augustine

  29. #29
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    Quote Originally Posted by Dîn-Heru
    Hehe, I realised that a bit later, but the decsion was made in 2004, and that was where I counted from. The only critique I found in the big papers from 2004 was a sentance from Haga, who was then in Utenrikskomiteen and Willoch.
    Your searching skills are inferior then. SV was hysterical at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dîn-Heru
    It was not a descision made in secret, if the current government felt so strongly about it the decision could have been overturned on day one 2,5 years ago..
    It *was* a decision made in secret, which was exposed by BT this year. Or rather, the real decision was secret. It's a good thing Erna only lied and deceived about the life of a human and not a couple of blowjobs(the thought of which make me shudder), or else she might have faced impeachment...

    And you know our political system just as well as I do; thinking that any of them will do anything unless they're given a good push(in vanunu's case, sending an asylum application) . And since nobody has pushed the current government yet, nothing has happened... it might though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dîn-Heru
    (Ps I personally could not care less about whether they let him in or not, but you should not be so quick to lambast the former government, when yours have not done anything besides maybe a few chummy words with about their concern with the Israeli ambassador..)
    Bah, I reserve the right to lambast, ridicule and hate the former incompetent idiots without any reason or justification whatsoever
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  30. #30
    Silent Ruler Member Dîn-Heru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel 60 years on: The Filth and the Fury

    SV is always hysterical, I thought that was a given , but I did not see any articles when I searched the sites of VG, Dagbladet and Aftenposten. (But you are right, I found an interview with Halvorsen when I searched again with reference to SV.)

    Yes, she used here right as a minister to set aside a recommendation from UDI. Was it a wise decision? Who knows? Perhaps not the most humanitarian there ever was, but the conceerns of one individual does not always come first in international politics..

    Bjarne Håkon Hansen did exactly the same as Erna by the way: http://www.bt.no/innenriks/article546040.ece

    And you know our political system just as well as I do; thinking that any of them will do anything unless they're given a good push(in vanunu's case, sending an asylum application) . And since nobody has pushed the current government yet, nothing has happened... it might though.
    True, except that the push is not him sending a new application, but that the media has decided to put this matter on the current agenda..

    Just out of curiosity. If he is granted asylum, do you think he would be allowed to leave Israel? What should we do if they refuse to let him leave?
    Last edited by Dîn-Heru; 05-01-2008 at 21:07.
    Patience is the companion of wisdom.
    --St. Augustine

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