French foreign policy in the EE - a real change or an illusion ?

[KrooK]

My point of view is different than your Cegorach.

I don't think Poland and France needs better relationship now. Since Napoleon all alliances cause big damage in Poland and strenghtened France. Situation like today is good - France is on West, we on Easy and everyone is happy where he is. As Finn president told "don't look for enemies close and allies far away". Maybe its strange - according to me our medium sized country don't need good relation with "superpower" but...
I have no doubts - now we are much weaker than France but we have opportunities and if there will be no next world war into next 10 years, we will be stronger and stronger. I don't think France has similar situation.
So that best would be build Kingdom of Heaven on our own.

[cegorach]

I don't get it. It is obvious that France is in the western part of the continent, unless it annexes Germany which is at least unlikely.

Besides I don't see any way around the problem. If we play it well France will give us support in questions we are interested in. Germany and probably the UK are easier to convince, but only really overwhelming support can work well in certain areas such as energy security or security in general.

We are in no situation when we either have to rely solely on France (thanks God !) or it is somehow crucial to our safety (thanks again), but we need to play on all fronts - double, tripple guarantees are the only way to give us at least 50 years of relative safety, although I hope for more.

Sorry mate, but France can play a very important part in the game we need to play - we are not Switzerland, Sweden or Andorra, we are Poland a country which either is successfull or it disappears because there is no way we can relocate to a safe corner of the Earth if there is any such place anymore.

So we either gain French support or we will have to create so complicated schemes to acheve something that everything qill fall apart with any really minute change or incident.
See how it is now - from EU states only three small Baltic states have similar attitude for sure, but they lack long term vision and are too small. Czechs are fine, but you never know anything for sure with them - in critical moment they can as well fortify in Prague and play political Szwejk. Slovakia is a mess again. Our centuries old friends Hungarians are now sadly between a Russian trojan horse and a really hesitant ally and center-righ-populist Fidesz opposition is just like our imbeciles from PiS. Germany have their own plans and their hesitation with Ukraine is well known even with Merkel. They simply have other priorities than we, though it is not too difficult to sway their opinion it will never be the same as ours. Besides it can get worse if their sado-masochistic love affair with Russia starts anew with a second Schroder in power one day.
Others from eastern-central Europe are either not interested (Slovenia), limited to Balcans in their interests (future members such as Croatia), with open pro-Russian leanings (Bulgaria, Greece) or without sufficient strenght, even if quite enthusiastic (Romania). Scandinavians are fine, but hardly useful in certain projects and we can simply ignore most of the western medium and small powers for their lack of interest (Spain) or really sad state of their politics (Italy, possibly Belgium).
So we get the Uk which will always be a bit away from the continent and the self-centred French.

Of course France is anything but a perfect ally, to be honest they are indeed terrible - pompous, arrogant, treating others as half-barbarians who just discovered forks (probably when in France) and in general thinking about themselves as the center of all things, but it is either a shifting, ever changing and fragile construct which makes a house of cards a concrete bunker in comparison or we will need to gain their support from time to time.

So I say we do much to accomodate them, to make them feel happy - tell them how we love their cousine, how wonderful their language is, how much we poor and modest 'barbarians' can learn from them, frak, we can even tell them how we appreciate the great and long lasting Polish Franco-Polish (putting the right words in the order they could enjoy the most) or call Maria Curie-Skłodowska, Marie Curie from time to time.
Indeed even if our diplomacy needs to recall Lassalle's poem about Pol... Franco-Polish friendship every time it is nowhere we lose anything important as long as we stick to the principles, do not sacrifice our plans and gain their support when we need it.





BTW I really like French language and literature - no disrespect here.



P.S. Totally disagree about Napoleon. For centuries it was the only time when our interests were virtually the same as those of France. Remember that in 1797-1807 even the word Poland was officially banned after the partition agreement and the cursed trinity could be only demolished by an outsider with too much energy and ambition who could only be the Corsican. Despite Santo Domingo, Żeromski's "Popioły" and Vistula Legion nothing changes that the only rational outcome of Napoleon's conquest would be fully ressurected Rzeczpospolita with addition of Code Civil which was an excellent work too.
That is why we lost so much in 1812, 1813, 1814 and 1815 , but at least after 1815 nobody could entirely ignore us anymore, even if it meant open attempts to annihilate us in decades after 1864.


P.S 2.
I suggest to change the sign. I don't like simplified and provocative way this man uses in his biased crusade - doing much harm to the question I care so much and inspiring extremists, BUT this way you are making this persona an authority, a recommended source - in most cases the only one. With predictable and utterly distasteful results.

[Tribesman]

P.S 2.
I suggest to change the sign.

I suggest he keeps the sign cegroach , it says a hell of a lot about him and his "mind"set

[KrooK]

I suggest to change the sign. I don't like simplified and provocative way this man uses in his biased crusade - doing much harm to the question I care so much and inspiring extremists, BUT this way you are making this persona an authority, a recommended source - in most cases the only one. With predictable and utterly distasteful results.

No way m8. Time to show him his worth by Stalins way. No care what are you repeating all the time - finally it became truth. Anyway I realy don't like that guy. He call himself historician but only thing he does is making money when he put conclusions that are necessary for some groups of people.

[The Wizard]

And do you remember why this French alliance with Poland came into being? Because France was the only power to come to Poland's aid in its war against the Soviets in 1920, wasn't it?

Apart from other sorts of aid, like facilitating and transporting the so-called Blue Army of Polish exiles to the Polish battlefield, the French also sent four hundred military advisors of their own. Among them a certain Charles de Gaulle who was awarded Poland's highest military order for his role in the fighting near the Zbrucz river and was subsequently offered a military career in Poland.

All nice, but you're leaning over dangerously close to the whole "France won the war against the Soviets for Poland" myth. And, uh, I think you forgot something: namely that France wasn't the only one clenching the proverbial butt cheeks tight 'cause of them commies taking stuff over in good old Russia, suddenly making peace with the evil Jerries and being all radical and revolutionary and all that.

And, well, heh -- the Franco-Polish alliance, huh? Only to encircle that evil Hunnish devil that humiliated France so dearly in 1871 and then had to be kept as weak as possible after 1918. After a while, it became a nice cordon sanitaire against that other threatening force: the USSR. Finally, as for "coming to Poland's aid" in 1939: Phoney War, anybody? You call that aid?

[Adrian II]

All nice, but you're leaning over dangerously close to the whole "France won the war against the Soviets for Poland" myth.

I am not leaning in any direction. I don't do 'leaning'. But if you want to dispute any of the facts I mentioned, go right ahead.

Phoney War, anybody? You call that aid?

Sadly, it wasn't enough. The German attack on Poland surprised everyone, including Poland, which expected a German assault toward 1942. At the time of the invasion Poland was even selling part of its self-produced military hardware to acquire funds for its further industrialization. Within a few weeks after the attack, there was no more Poland whilst France and Britain had hardly begun mobilizing or acquiring much-needed equipment for a possible offensive.

I hope I'm not telling you anything new when I say none of Europe was prepared for Hitler's onslaught.

Let me tell you a story. When the Germans invaded The Netherlands on May 10, 1940, France sent its 7th Army to Belgium and The Netherlands to provide support. They came too late to help prevent the rapid collapse of the Dutch army, but they continued fighting in the south-western province of Zeeland after the formal ceasefire. They were mostly motorized infantry and Moroccan sipahis. Hundreds of them died, either in desperate fights alongside the last Dutch troops or because they drowned afterwards in attempts to regain France or Britain by sea. The bodies of 229 soldiers, most of them Moroccans, were buried in Dutch cemeteries and later collected in a separate war cemetery. The graves are well looked after, their story is taught to schoolchildren and each year in May the Zeeland locals hold a memorial service at the cemetery in their honour. Not because they made any big difference in the larger frame of things. It's because they died for us. It's because recognizing and honouring the contributions and sacrifice of others for your liberty is the decent thing to do.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Let me tell you a story. When the Germans invaded The Netherlands on May 10, 1940, France sent its 7th Army to Belgium and The Netherlands to provide support. They came too late to help prevent the rapid collapse of the Dutch army, but they continued fighting in the south-western province of Zeeland after the formal ceasefire. They were mostly motorized infantry and Moroccan sipahis. Hundreds of them died, either in desperate fights alongside the last Dutch troops or because they drowned afterwards in attempts to regain France or Britain by sea. The bodies of 229 soldiers, most of them Moroccans, were buried in Dutch cemeteries and later collected in a separate war cemetery. The graves are well looked after, their story is taught to schoolchildren and each year in May the Zeeland locals hold a memorial service at the cemetery in their honour. Not because they made any big difference in the larger frame of things. It's because they died for us. It's because recognizing and honouring the contributions and sacrifice of others for your liberty is the decent thing to do.

I keep reading brilliant posts from you, Adrian, and keep thinking to myself that I should acknowledge them in some way with out appearing unctuous. Invariably, I fail to marshal the words and thus enshroud myself with the shadows wherein my vocation condemns me.

This post may not be so betrayed. It embodies your wisdom, knowledge and humanity.

You do us, and this forum, honour.

[Brenus]

“I understand that such radicals have certain appeal to some people, but personally I wouln't ever move beyound blowing up Lenin's monuments if I lived in the 1970s, certainly not people.” I didn’t say I was under influence, I said it was my political background; more a joke than reality. However that was the reality when the first Oil crisis happened.

“I don't think Poland and France needs better relationship now. Since Napoleon all alliances cause big damage in Poland and strengthened France.” Strengthened France in what aspects?
And hopefully France won’t have to go to war to defend Poland…

“call Maria Curie-Skłodowska, Marie Curie from time to time” Usual custom in France. Not in Spain, but in France the wife takes the name of the husband, and my wife, English have my name… It is not all against Poland, you have to know that…

“to be honest they are indeed terrible - pompous, arrogant, treating others as half-barbarians who just discovered forks (probably when in France) and in general thinking about themselves as the centre of all things,”: Err, we are the centre of all the things, we invented democracy, human rights, fire and the wheel. And it is not nice to be so jealous…
And we don’t treat others as half barbarian but as full barbarian.

“the Franco-Polish alliance, huh? Only to encircle that evil Hunnish devil that humiliated France so dearly in 1871 and then had to be kept as weak as possible after 1918. After a while, it became a nice cordon sanitaire against that other threatening force: the USSR. Finally, as for "coming to Poland's aid" in 1939: Phoney War, anybody? You call that aid?” Didn’t work very well the help from Poland in 1914… Why? Ah, yes, Poland didn’t exist. Why it existed later? Ah, yes, France and UK imposed it. No need to say thank you, you’re welcome…

I won’t go to WW2. Reading people like you and your comments brings back bad under skin feelings. I hope the 90.000 French soldiers fallen in 1940 because the French and the UK governments, respecting their military agreement declared war against Germany can’t read them.
And the nice “cordon sanitaire” was lead by a dictator who took his share of flesh after the invasion by Hitler of Czechoslovakia…

Do you notice how the France haters like to qualify all French defeats as humiliating…? And the French victories always doubtful/ignored or the guy who won wasn’t French / not really French…
How this country survived all these humiliating defeats, I don’t know: Probably because they are genius in Diplomacy. Hoops, I forget: their wives, daughters and sisters go in bed with the enemies… That is how…

[The Wizard]

I hope I'm not telling you anything new when I say none of Europe was prepared for Hitler's onslaught.

Yes, yes -- because it wasn't painfully obvious what Germany was doing taking a crap on Versailles each and every day starting in 1933. If Europe was caught unprepared then that was because it had chosen to take a nap while Germany went hunting map pixels in Eastern Europe.

Every nation bordering Germany, especially its traditional enemies as well as Poland, knew what was going on. Hell, the industrialization effort you mentioned was part of a plan to center the nation's industry as far away from harm as possible (harm, obviously, expected to come from either Germany or Russia). In the end, with Slovakia turning coats, choosing the south of central Poland for that wasn't such a good idea after all, but the plan was made before 1929 and the meteoric rise of block mustaches and goose steps, so yeah.

[cegorach]

“I understand that such radicals have certain appeal to some people, but personally I wouln't ever move beyound blowing up Lenin's monuments if I lived in the 1970s, certainly not people.” I didn’t say I was under influence, I said it was my political background; more a joke than reality. However that was the reality when the first Oil crisis happened.

Understood.

“I don't think Poland and France needs better relationship now. Since Napoleon all alliances cause big damage in Poland and strengthened France.” Strengthened France in what aspects?
And hopefully France won’t have to go to war to defend Poland…

He means Napoleon's Black Legend - Santo Domingo, Spain and so on.

“call Maria Curie-Skłodowska, Marie Curie from time to time” Usual custom in France. Not in Spain, but in France the wife takes the name of the husband, and my wife, English have my name… It is not all against Poland, you have to know that…

I understand I need to write warning the post includes dozes of IRONY ?

“the Franco-Polish alliance, huh? Only to encircle that evil Hunnish devil that humiliated France so dearly in 1871 and then had to be kept as weak as possible after 1918. After a while, it became a nice cordon sanitaire against that other threatening force: the USSR. Finally, as for "coming to Poland's aid" in 1939: Phoney War, anybody? You call that aid?” Didn’t work very well the help from Poland in 1914… Why? Ah, yes, Poland didn’t exist. Why it existed later? Ah, yes, France and UK imposed it. No need to say thank you, you’re welcome…

To cut a discussion short. It didn't exist because it didn't exist and French and British response with all the show of granting independence was quite normal after the Central States did it first. In the end nobody gave anything anyone - simply the three emperors and their empires were falling apart and new states were born.

Later we have all the show with the right for independence and Versailles which indeed gave Poland Pomerelia, which might be fought for otherwise just like Greater Poland or Upper Silesia, or Lvov or Wilno or Tsetchen or...

I won’t go to WW2. Reading people like you and your comments brings back bad under skin feelings. I hope the 90.000 French soldiers fallen in 1940 because the French and the UK governments, respecting their military agreement declared war against Germany can’t read them.
And the nice “cordon sanitaire” was lead by a dictator who took his share of flesh after the invasion by Hitler of Czechoslovakia…

Again an enjoyable and much simplified comment. Apparently Piłsudski died in 1935 and Tseschen area was fought for in 1919-20 between the Czechs and Poles taken by the first at the high point of the Polish-Soviet war which had its consequences. I wonder why Beck proposed (ask Namier for details) the French foreign office in 1938 that Poland will act in defence of Czechoslovakia if France reacts too - I guess it was because Poles were secret allies of Hitler and were led by anti-French zombie dictator who was so stupid to propose a joint preventive attack against Germany in 1934...


But we could talk it over again and again - yet without some basic knowledge it is all pointless and has nothing to do with the results - the terrible reputation of France and Britain.

Do you notice how the France haters like to qualify all French defeats as humiliating…? And the French victories always doubtful/ignored or the guy who won wasn’t French / not really French…
How this country survived all these humiliating defeats, I don’t know: Probably because they are genius in Diplomacy. Hoops, I forget: their wives, daughters and sisters go in bed with the enemies… That is how…

I hope it is not about me. I said the Corsican only because it is another expression to describe Napoleon Bonaparte, and the rest - ohh please.

I might have bad opinion about French morale in the past, but thanks to much research, partly accidental I would say that it was mainly due nightmarish political mistakes, bad luck (1st DCR on 15th May vs. Hoth's corps, anyone ?) and a couple of incompetent fools in wrong places that is why it suffered the humilating defeat in 1940. Add that to Gamelin trying to command the army through a telephone from his chateau and here you have it.
In the past I would say it was because of cowardness, now incompetence would be the decisive factor. Hardly changes my conclusion about uselessness, though.

The uselessness of the alliance lies in political blunders and misinformation broadcasted in 1939 which pushed Poland to deploy divisions (from army which was half mobilised and that against allied pressure) in the cordon defence with a number of larger and smaller gaps to avoid another Munich feared and actually prepared by Lord Halifax and Duce (not together and not literally, but see their actions).
Germans didn't have to fight hard in a number of places, they just pushed their way through a gap. Obviously it didn't end the campaign (after all largest battles e.g. at Bzura, Tomaszów Lubelski or Lvov were fought in the last weeks), but greatly accelerated it, especially together with the Soviet invasion.
It is hardly a good idea to cheat your ally and later expect him to forget it, especially with 45 years of communism - which acts as a giant freezer preventing some otherwise useful discussions.

If Poland was not under Soviet controll I believe a number of things would be cleared by the revisionist generation of 1968, but it didn't so here we are again and I certainly wouldn't like that EUphobes and other populist garbage hijacking valid difficult points in Polish-French relationship.

Americans slowly grow up to admitt how lousy was FDR's foreign policy in relations with Stalin, the British have people like N.Davies to remind them - who do the French have ?
Nobody ? So don't be suprised m8. Eventually everything is forgotten even if not forgiven, but if France cares to score a couple of points for 'good behaviour' it sentence might be shorter. The problem is nobody cares for that out there, though here if you want to see 'the root of all evil' and bad reputation see September 1939 for popular audience and 1934-early 1939 when it comes to people like me.
If someone with apparently rather anti-establishment ideas in the past acts just like in quoted points above I can only express my displeasure.
I could also add something about defensive character of French nationalism, but that wouldn't be too far, or wouldn't be ? After all it is so unfair to use so simplified point of view, it would be like calling Poland a dictatorship allying itself with Hitler over Czechoslovakia...






With the exception of throwing some points like those I have nothing to add. Presence and future interest me a bit more than the past.






@Krook


You are making it so easy...
Continue and you will see Le Pen of some sort accusing you publicly for xenophobia and people will buy it, partly because they want to, partly because they like it more than something what really happened.
Nobody is so masochistic to enjoy discussing the worst points of history of his nation.



example what people can buy without hesitation.

Tribesman


Quote:
And the nice “cordon sanitaire” was lead by a dictator who took his share of flesh after the invasion by Hitler of Czechoslovakia…

I like your style Brenus

A classic style 'whataboutism', though the masters of that usually say 'and they lynch negroes'.