French foreign policy in the EE - a real change or an illusion ?

[The Wizard]

And do you remember why this French alliance with Poland came into being? Because France was the only power to come to Poland's aid in its war against the Soviets in 1920, wasn't it?

Apart from other sorts of aid, like facilitating and transporting the so-called Blue Army of Polish exiles to the Polish battlefield, the French also sent four hundred military advisors of their own. Among them a certain Charles de Gaulle who was awarded Poland's highest military order for his role in the fighting near the Zbrucz river and was subsequently offered a military career in Poland.

All nice, but you're leaning over dangerously close to the whole "France won the war against the Soviets for Poland" myth. And, uh, I think you forgot something: namely that France wasn't the only one clenching the proverbial butt cheeks tight 'cause of them commies taking stuff over in good old Russia, suddenly making peace with the evil Jerries and being all radical and revolutionary and all that.

And, well, heh -- the Franco-Polish alliance, huh? Only to encircle that evil Hunnish devil that humiliated France so dearly in 1871 and then had to be kept as weak as possible after 1918. After a while, it became a nice cordon sanitaire against that other threatening force: the USSR. Finally, as for "coming to Poland's aid" in 1939: Phoney War, anybody? You call that aid?

[Adrian II]

All nice, but you're leaning over dangerously close to the whole "France won the war against the Soviets for Poland" myth.

I am not leaning in any direction. I don't do 'leaning'. But if you want to dispute any of the facts I mentioned, go right ahead.

Phoney War, anybody? You call that aid?

Sadly, it wasn't enough. The German attack on Poland surprised everyone, including Poland, which expected a German assault toward 1942. At the time of the invasion Poland was even selling part of its self-produced military hardware to acquire funds for its further industrialization. Within a few weeks after the attack, there was no more Poland whilst France and Britain had hardly begun mobilizing or acquiring much-needed equipment for a possible offensive.

I hope I'm not telling you anything new when I say none of Europe was prepared for Hitler's onslaught.

Let me tell you a story. When the Germans invaded The Netherlands on May 10, 1940, France sent its 7th Army to Belgium and The Netherlands to provide support. They came too late to help prevent the rapid collapse of the Dutch army, but they continued fighting in the south-western province of Zeeland after the formal ceasefire. They were mostly motorized infantry and Moroccan sipahis. Hundreds of them died, either in desperate fights alongside the last Dutch troops or because they drowned afterwards in attempts to regain France or Britain by sea. The bodies of 229 soldiers, most of them Moroccans, were buried in Dutch cemeteries and later collected in a separate war cemetery. The graves are well looked after, their story is taught to schoolchildren and each year in May the Zeeland locals hold a memorial service at the cemetery in their honour. Not because they made any big difference in the larger frame of things. It's because they died for us. It's because recognizing and honouring the contributions and sacrifice of others for your liberty is the decent thing to do.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Let me tell you a story. When the Germans invaded The Netherlands on May 10, 1940, France sent its 7th Army to Belgium and The Netherlands to provide support. They came too late to help prevent the rapid collapse of the Dutch army, but they continued fighting in the south-western province of Zeeland after the formal ceasefire. They were mostly motorized infantry and Moroccan sipahis. Hundreds of them died, either in desperate fights alongside the last Dutch troops or because they drowned afterwards in attempts to regain France or Britain by sea. The bodies of 229 soldiers, most of them Moroccans, were buried in Dutch cemeteries and later collected in a separate war cemetery. The graves are well looked after, their story is taught to schoolchildren and each year in May the Zeeland locals hold a memorial service at the cemetery in their honour. Not because they made any big difference in the larger frame of things. It's because they died for us. It's because recognizing and honouring the contributions and sacrifice of others for your liberty is the decent thing to do.

I keep reading brilliant posts from you, Adrian, and keep thinking to myself that I should acknowledge them in some way with out appearing unctuous. Invariably, I fail to marshal the words and thus enshroud myself with the shadows wherein my vocation condemns me.

This post may not be so betrayed. It embodies your wisdom, knowledge and humanity.

You do us, and this forum, honour.

[Brenus]

“I understand that such radicals have certain appeal to some people, but personally I wouln't ever move beyound blowing up Lenin's monuments if I lived in the 1970s, certainly not people.” I didn’t say I was under influence, I said it was my political background; more a joke than reality. However that was the reality when the first Oil crisis happened.

“I don't think Poland and France needs better relationship now. Since Napoleon all alliances cause big damage in Poland and strengthened France.” Strengthened France in what aspects?
And hopefully France won’t have to go to war to defend Poland…

“call Maria Curie-Skłodowska, Marie Curie from time to time” Usual custom in France. Not in Spain, but in France the wife takes the name of the husband, and my wife, English have my name… It is not all against Poland, you have to know that…

“to be honest they are indeed terrible - pompous, arrogant, treating others as half-barbarians who just discovered forks (probably when in France) and in general thinking about themselves as the centre of all things,”: Err, we are the centre of all the things, we invented democracy, human rights, fire and the wheel. And it is not nice to be so jealous…
And we don’t treat others as half barbarian but as full barbarian.

“the Franco-Polish alliance, huh? Only to encircle that evil Hunnish devil that humiliated France so dearly in 1871 and then had to be kept as weak as possible after 1918. After a while, it became a nice cordon sanitaire against that other threatening force: the USSR. Finally, as for "coming to Poland's aid" in 1939: Phoney War, anybody? You call that aid?” Didn’t work very well the help from Poland in 1914… Why? Ah, yes, Poland didn’t exist. Why it existed later? Ah, yes, France and UK imposed it. No need to say thank you, you’re welcome…

I won’t go to WW2. Reading people like you and your comments brings back bad under skin feelings. I hope the 90.000 French soldiers fallen in 1940 because the French and the UK governments, respecting their military agreement declared war against Germany can’t read them.
And the nice “cordon sanitaire” was lead by a dictator who took his share of flesh after the invasion by Hitler of Czechoslovakia…

Do you notice how the France haters like to qualify all French defeats as humiliating…? And the French victories always doubtful/ignored or the guy who won wasn’t French / not really French…
How this country survived all these humiliating defeats, I don’t know: Probably because they are genius in Diplomacy. Hoops, I forget: their wives, daughters and sisters go in bed with the enemies… That is how…

[The Wizard]

I hope I'm not telling you anything new when I say none of Europe was prepared for Hitler's onslaught.

Yes, yes -- because it wasn't painfully obvious what Germany was doing taking a crap on Versailles each and every day starting in 1933. If Europe was caught unprepared then that was because it had chosen to take a nap while Germany went hunting map pixels in Eastern Europe.

Every nation bordering Germany, especially its traditional enemies as well as Poland, knew what was going on. Hell, the industrialization effort you mentioned was part of a plan to center the nation's industry as far away from harm as possible (harm, obviously, expected to come from either Germany or Russia). In the end, with Slovakia turning coats, choosing the south of central Poland for that wasn't such a good idea after all, but the plan was made before 1929 and the meteoric rise of block mustaches and goose steps, so yeah.

[Adrian II]

Yes, yes -- because it wasn't painfully obvious what Germany was doing taking a crap on Versailles each and every day starting in 1933. If Europe was caught unprepared then that was because it had chosen to take a nap while Germany went hunting map pixels in Eastern Europe.

European nations were unprepared for the exact same reason why Jews didn't leave Germany en masse in 1933: they couldn't or wouldn't believe that things would turn so bad so fast. If that makes you angry, maybe you could find some living members of that generation and slap them around a bit, eh? Show them they weren't punished enough for their gullibility.

[KrooK]

Here you are far from truth...

Sadly, it wasn't enough. The German attack on Poland surprised everyone, including Poland, which expected a German assault toward 1942. At the time of the invasion Poland was even selling part of its self-produced military hardware to acquire funds for its further industrialization. Within a few weeks after the attack, there was no more Poland whilst France and Britain had hardly begun mobilizing or acquiring much-needed equipment for a possible offensive.

Poles expect attack. They prepared themselves and started mobilising troops. They would finish but .... France asked Poland to stop mobilisation.
Anyway France betrayed Poland into 1939. Do you know what Hitler feared most. According to Goering "100 French divisions attacking 20 divisions of German reserves". I can add that without Ruhre region Germany would have to surrender without fight.

Do you know what was strategic reason to help Netherlands and Belgium?
France would be flanked - Maginot line would be surrounded without loses.
Thats why France had to help there.

Blue Army was formed because France needed every man to fight. Organised unit would lower morale of Poles fighting for Central Countries. 400 officers who were sent to Poland during war 1920 did not take part into real combat - however french newspapers claimed that it was only their efforts and good plan won Battle of Warsaw.


To sup up I advise you to stop show France as savior of humanity. France always did everything only to help France.

[Adrian II]

Poles expect attack. They prepared themselves and started mobilising troops. They would finish but .... France asked Poland to stop mobilisation.
Anyway France betrayed Poland into 1939. Do you know what Hitler feared most. According to Goering "100 French divisions attacking 20 divisions of German reserves". I can add that without Ruhre region Germany would have to surrender without fight.

Yup, we're in fruitcake territory. I knew it.

Do you know what was strategic reason to help Netherlands and Belgium? France would be flanked - Maginot line would be surrounded without loses. Thats why France had to help there.

You don't say? I'm deeply shocked. We shall dig up those 229 soldiers forthwith and dump them in the sea. Oh, those treacherous Frenchmen!

[Tribesman]

Yup, we're in fruitcake territory. I knew it.

Only if it is the correct type of fruitcake

http://www.polana.com/product/153/18
Polish fruitcake is far superior to all other fruitcake

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Poles expect attack. They prepared themselves and started mobilising troops. They would finish but .... France asked Poland to stop mobilisation.
Anyway France betrayed Poland into 1939. Do you know what Hitler feared most. According to Goering "100 French divisions attacking 20 divisions of German reserves". I can add that without Ruhre region Germany would have to surrender without fight.

I really want to respond to that, but I'll resist. Anyhow, what's the point? Everyone knows one Pole can kill one hundred Germans, because that's just what happene...oh, right. Sorry.

Do you know what was strategic reason to help Netherlands and Belgium?
France would be flanked - Maginot line would be surrounded without loses.
Thats why France had to help there.

Really? I learn something new every day.

[Tribesman]

And the nice “cordon sanitaire” was lead by a dictator who took his share of flesh after the invasion by Hitler of Czechoslovakia…

I like your style Brenus

[cegorach]

“I understand that such radicals have certain appeal to some people, but personally I wouln't ever move beyound blowing up Lenin's monuments if I lived in the 1970s, certainly not people.” I didn’t say I was under influence, I said it was my political background; more a joke than reality. However that was the reality when the first Oil crisis happened.

Understood.

“I don't think Poland and France needs better relationship now. Since Napoleon all alliances cause big damage in Poland and strengthened France.” Strengthened France in what aspects?
And hopefully France won’t have to go to war to defend Poland…

He means Napoleon's Black Legend - Santo Domingo, Spain and so on.

“call Maria Curie-Skłodowska, Marie Curie from time to time” Usual custom in France. Not in Spain, but in France the wife takes the name of the husband, and my wife, English have my name… It is not all against Poland, you have to know that…

I understand I need to write warning the post includes dozes of IRONY ?

“the Franco-Polish alliance, huh? Only to encircle that evil Hunnish devil that humiliated France so dearly in 1871 and then had to be kept as weak as possible after 1918. After a while, it became a nice cordon sanitaire against that other threatening force: the USSR. Finally, as for "coming to Poland's aid" in 1939: Phoney War, anybody? You call that aid?” Didn’t work very well the help from Poland in 1914… Why? Ah, yes, Poland didn’t exist. Why it existed later? Ah, yes, France and UK imposed it. No need to say thank you, you’re welcome…

To cut a discussion short. It didn't exist because it didn't exist and French and British response with all the show of granting independence was quite normal after the Central States did it first. In the end nobody gave anything anyone - simply the three emperors and their empires were falling apart and new states were born.

Later we have all the show with the right for independence and Versailles which indeed gave Poland Pomerelia, which might be fought for otherwise just like Greater Poland or Upper Silesia, or Lvov or Wilno or Tsetchen or...

I won’t go to WW2. Reading people like you and your comments brings back bad under skin feelings. I hope the 90.000 French soldiers fallen in 1940 because the French and the UK governments, respecting their military agreement declared war against Germany can’t read them.
And the nice “cordon sanitaire” was lead by a dictator who took his share of flesh after the invasion by Hitler of Czechoslovakia…

Again an enjoyable and much simplified comment. Apparently Piłsudski died in 1935 and Tseschen area was fought for in 1919-20 between the Czechs and Poles taken by the first at the high point of the Polish-Soviet war which had its consequences. I wonder why Beck proposed (ask Namier for details) the French foreign office in 1938 that Poland will act in defence of Czechoslovakia if France reacts too - I guess it was because Poles were secret allies of Hitler and were led by anti-French zombie dictator who was so stupid to propose a joint preventive attack against Germany in 1934...


But we could talk it over again and again - yet without some basic knowledge it is all pointless and has nothing to do with the results - the terrible reputation of France and Britain.

Do you notice how the France haters like to qualify all French defeats as humiliating…? And the French victories always doubtful/ignored or the guy who won wasn’t French / not really French…
How this country survived all these humiliating defeats, I don’t know: Probably because they are genius in Diplomacy. Hoops, I forget: their wives, daughters and sisters go in bed with the enemies… That is how…

I hope it is not about me. I said the Corsican only because it is another expression to describe Napoleon Bonaparte, and the rest - ohh please.

I might have bad opinion about French morale in the past, but thanks to much research, partly accidental I would say that it was mainly due nightmarish political mistakes, bad luck (1st DCR on 15th May vs. Hoth's corps, anyone ?) and a couple of incompetent fools in wrong places that is why it suffered the humilating defeat in 1940. Add that to Gamelin trying to command the army through a telephone from his chateau and here you have it.
In the past I would say it was because of cowardness, now incompetence would be the decisive factor. Hardly changes my conclusion about uselessness, though.

The uselessness of the alliance lies in political blunders and misinformation broadcasted in 1939 which pushed Poland to deploy divisions (from army which was half mobilised and that against allied pressure) in the cordon defence with a number of larger and smaller gaps to avoid another Munich feared and actually prepared by Lord Halifax and Duce (not together and not literally, but see their actions).
Germans didn't have to fight hard in a number of places, they just pushed their way through a gap. Obviously it didn't end the campaign (after all largest battles e.g. at Bzura, Tomaszów Lubelski or Lvov were fought in the last weeks), but greatly accelerated it, especially together with the Soviet invasion.
It is hardly a good idea to cheat your ally and later expect him to forget it, especially with 45 years of communism - which acts as a giant freezer preventing some otherwise useful discussions.

If Poland was not under Soviet controll I believe a number of things would be cleared by the revisionist generation of 1968, but it didn't so here we are again and I certainly wouldn't like that EUphobes and other populist garbage hijacking valid difficult points in Polish-French relationship.

Americans slowly grow up to admitt how lousy was FDR's foreign policy in relations with Stalin, the British have people like N.Davies to remind them - who do the French have ?
Nobody ? So don't be suprised m8. Eventually everything is forgotten even if not forgiven, but if France cares to score a couple of points for 'good behaviour' it sentence might be shorter. The problem is nobody cares for that out there, though here if you want to see 'the root of all evil' and bad reputation see September 1939 for popular audience and 1934-early 1939 when it comes to people like me.
If someone with apparently rather anti-establishment ideas in the past acts just like in quoted points above I can only express my displeasure.
I could also add something about defensive character of French nationalism, but that wouldn't be too far, or wouldn't be ? After all it is so unfair to use so simplified point of view, it would be like calling Poland a dictatorship allying itself with Hitler over Czechoslovakia...






With the exception of throwing some points like those I have nothing to add. Presence and future interest me a bit more than the past.






@Krook


You are making it so easy...
Continue and you will see Le Pen of some sort accusing you publicly for xenophobia and people will buy it, partly because they want to, partly because they like it more than something what really happened.
Nobody is so masochistic to enjoy discussing the worst points of history of his nation.



example what people can buy without hesitation.

Tribesman


Quote:
And the nice “cordon sanitaire” was lead by a dictator who took his share of flesh after the invasion by Hitler of Czechoslovakia…

I like your style Brenus

A classic style 'whataboutism', though the masters of that usually say 'and they lynch negroes'.

[Brenus]

“I hope it is not about me.” Do you qualify as France hater? And no, it was not aimed to you. It was more a general remark, based on the French phobia from few years ago… I was funny in a way… And if you go back to read some comments, you will see I don’t exaggerate…

“1st DCR on 15th May vs. Hoth's corps, anyone ?” Not only. With a proper High Command (and not a Gamelin who just waited for retirement and “without intention to intervene in a battle field decisions making”, and the false security of the Maginot), the French Army could have done better. Each time the French fought the Germans in equal term, the French tanks took the upper hand… Until the Stukas… (the battle of Gamblou could be an good example)…
In fact, the tactical concept of the Germans was just far superior from the Anglo-French one. It works until Russia when the land gave time to the Red Army to recover…

“Hardly changes my conclusion about uselessness, though.” Agree. Why to ally with Poland which just buys all equipment to USA with EU money…?

“After all it is so unfair to use so simplified point of view, it would be like calling Poland a dictatorship allying itself with Hitler over Czechoslovakia.” Yes, it would, so I didn’t.
I just reminded that all countries got some black but inconvenient truths…

“I understand I need to write warning the post includes dozes of IRONY” Ok, I will too.

“Americans slowly grow up to admitt how lousy was FDR's foreign policy in relations with Stalin, the British have people like N.Davies to remind them - who do the French have ?”
Probably the biggest Polish Community in Europe (ere, exempt Poland, of course…).

[cegorach]

“I hope it is not about me.” Do you qualify as France hater? And no, it was not aimed to you. It was more a general remark, based on the French phobia from few years ago… I was funny in a way… And if you go back to read some comments, you will see I don’t exaggerate…

Yes, I realise I see examples every day.

“1st DCR on 15th May vs. Hoth's corps, anyone ?” Not only. With a proper High Command (and not a Gamelin who just waited for retirement and “without intention to intervene in a battle field decisions making”, and the false security of the Maginot), the French Army could have done better. Each time the French fought the Germans in equal term, the French tanks took the upper hand… Until the Stukas… (the battle of Gamblou could be an good example)…
In fact, the tactical concept of the Germans was just far superior from the Anglo-French one. It works until Russia when the land gave time to the Red Army to recover…

There are many true events which wait its re-discovery, many established 'truths' to demolish.

For example it is amazing that I have personally learnt that during the second largest battle of 1939 Polish campaign Soviet forces were more numerous than Germans and were critical to the defeat of Polish Northern Front - and that happened virtually one week ago !
It was buried during the communist times and since historians are conservative bunch of people the lack of information became the basis of all future works about the war. Even today it is almost unknown fact and the very large and important battle doesn't even have its own monography, as if all ended on 17th September 1939 except Warsaw and Kock (though usually only the German part of this battle).
It takes years to literally remake the history and a sort of revisionism is necessary.
Not from tabloid or folk 'historians' though.

“Hardly changes my conclusion about uselessness, though.” Agree. Why to ally with Poland which just buys all equipment to USA with EU money…?

Recently is rather from Israel. ;)

It is amazing, but some people treat that really seriously. For example the fact Poland bought F16s was described by some as obvious and distasteful 'lack of gratitude', even if nobody really buys Mirage 2000s, Gripens lack ground attack capabilities and Eurofighters are simply to expensive.
Add that to the 'fact' that Poland 'surely' uses the EU funds to pay for it as if it wasn't planned long years before.

“After all it is so unfair to use so simplified point of view, it would be like calling Poland a dictatorship allying itself with Hitler over Czechoslovakia.” Yes, it would, so I didn’t.
I just reminded that all countries got some black but inconvenient truths…

Yes, but it needs to be fairly discussed. You had your time earlier, we came out from the communist freezer just two decades before. It is hardly our 1968 now, but still important. Besides it is amazing how hard is for some people to use the great chance to improve bilatereal relationship.
Currently even the British are better with that - hardly perfect, but they are slowly admitting hard truths, even in quite popular TV documentary series like 'The Warlords' about 2nd WW leaders.

“Americans slowly grow up to admitt how lousy was FDR's foreign policy in relations with Stalin, the British have people like N.Davies to remind them - who do the French have ?”
Probably the biggest Polish Community in Europe (ere, exempt Poland, of course…)

The biggest, but hardly the most dinamic one. They are too well merged with French society not to notice lack of interest to revise history from the side of France.
I admitt it would be a good idea to use them, but there is nothing better than a native, popular writer with large audience - I see no possibility for that in France.

[Meneldil]

And no, it was not aimed to you. It was more a general remark, based on the French phobia from few years ago… I was funny in a way… And if you go back to read some comments, you will see I don’t exaggerate…

And you missed the funniest part. Back when I started posting here, almost every single topic was filled with "and those cheese-eating surrendering monkeys", and "after Afghanistan, we're going to visit France".

Good ol' time I say

[Tribesman]

Continue and you will see Le Pen of some sort accusing you publicly for xenophobia and people will buy it

Krook Xenophobic ?????no never , how on earth could you ever contemplate such a thing

[cegorach]

Krook Xenophobic ?????no never , how on earth could you ever contemplate such a thing

Hmmm if that is true I cannot say - I wasn't following Krooks posts or threads for that matter. All I noticed was rabid nationalism in old self claimed martyr style.

Besides it is rather the 'whataboutism' I am concerned about usually used in defence of things which cannot be defended.

There are limits to that, at certain point nothing is left but either condemnation ,confession and serious, honest discussion and disclosure or...
'What extermination camps ? Besides what about that situation in Guatemala when two of your 'brave' soldiers kicked that poor child and laughed cruelly - the poor kid could never recover. You are no better than us, bloody hypocrite !'

Every nation has 'defenders' of this kind - perhaps Krook is one of them I cannot say that because I am not reading his threads, but I have seen enough of this garbage used to derail criticism. Especially when simplified statements or utter lies are used as examples for 'whataboutism'.









@Adrian II

Be gone, I have invested enough time and patience with you already and will never make the same mistake twice only to get insulted in a way I will never forgive.

[Adrian II]

But we could talk it over again and again - yet without some basic knowledge it is all pointless and has nothing to do with the results - the terrible reputation of France and Britain.

Kaching! I have suddenly come to understand something. Thank you, Cegorach, for unwittingly explaining the vindictive nature of Polish nationalism. This vindictiveness is not the result of Poland's existence hanging in the balance and being threated for so long, it is the result of having been dependent for its existence or reemergence on other nations for so long.

What struck me in your posts is this: your arrogant, vindictive attitude toward Britain and France mirrors that of many Europeans, including British and French, toward the United States.

This has long been my take on 20th century anti-Americanism: it is the urge to bite the hand fed you, even saved you, repeatedly in your recent past. A good many Europeans, particularly of the post-war generations, couldn't stand the thought of having been liberated by the U.S. and then being dependent on that country for their strategic survival. This urge manifested itself both on the Right and on the Left of the political spectrum, among the British upper classes and the French elite just as well as among German leftwing students or Dutch hippies.

All the familiar themes of this anti-Americanism are also present in your own view of France and Britain. Just look at some of those themes and you will recognise their counterpart in your own views. Anti-Americanists will grudgingly admit that it was rather convenient to be liberated in 1944-45, but

• the Americans only did it in their own interest
• they only liberated Europe and the death camps when it was safe for them to do so
• containing the Soviets and communism is what they were really after
• they wanted to turn all of western Europe into an American backyard
• they made us accomplices in their world conquest
• their capitalist mass culture is abhorrent
• look what they did to their 'own' blacks, eh?
• didn't they commit genocide in Vietnam, just like the nazi's did earlier?

I'm afraid that this is the only insight that we gain from your posts. They are short on truth, but they are so long on harsh words and wild accusations that I concentrated on the latter; and all of a sudden the coin dropped.

P.S. Banquo's Ghost, sod off mate. I can't deal with compliments.