lorica hamata vs segmentata

[belliger]

hi.
i read that the modders of EB are tired to explain that they didn't give lorica segmentata to the imperial legionaries, because in that time (14 AD) there is no evidence that this armour was in use.
but i have to say that there have been recent founds in kalkriese -near osnabruck germany - of pieces of lorica segmentata. kalkriese is the place ocnsidered to be the site of the mabush of Teutoburger wald (9 AD - 'varus varus! gimme beack my legions!').
so, they were already starting to adopt them.

[Tyrfingr]

Straight out of wikipedia, read the marked line:

"The currently accepted range for the use of the armour is from about 9 B.C. (Dangstetten) to the late 3rd century A.D. (Leon). However, similar armouring techniques were used during the 16th century, employing sliding rivets and this was known as anima. However, the armor was used widespread only during the period of 1st-2nd centuries CE."

[Strategos Alexandros]

They know they were around earlier but their use was not widespread enough to warrant gving them their own unit slot. Plus they may not have been as good as the hamata.

[Darth Stalin]

And though I accept the point of view the EB team has presented so many times, I just do like the LS too much to noy use it at all...
Thus I'm planning to utilise new models with LS in my own mini-EB-mod for ALX.exe (compilation of other mods and some of my own ideas), mostly adding new units etc.; I'm gonna give LS to 2 units maybe:
1. Imperial First Cohort (and make it cost some 10% more?), but recruitable only in Italy
2. Evocati Augusti (Praetorian Veterans), recruitable only in Rome, costing even more than Praetorians (which will be recruitable, as historically, in Latium, Umbria and Etruria)

and I'll make an "Provincial Imperial First Cohort" to be recruited in some provinces outside Italy (part of Spain, Africa, Illyria, Pannonia, Belgica, Asia) with model using Lorica Squamata (lamellar armor).

[mucky305]

Some scholars even have suggested the possibility of LS being a ceremonial or dress armour (hence the concern for storage properties as you probably wouldn't worry about storing something that you wear often). LS has been found at military posts believed to have auxiliary units assigned primarily (the line legions wouldn't have been the only ones to get inspected, right?). History is at times a mystery.

[Watchman]

1. Imperial First Cohort (and make it cost some 10% more?), but recruitable only in Italy
2. Evocati Augusti (Praetorian Veterans), recruitable only in Rome, costing even more than Praetorians (which will be recruitable, as historically, in Latium, Umbria and Etruria)

Even if one were to be generous about it, LS would at best be the equivalent of the monolith cuirass and the "quality" chain worn by Celtic elites, the Ptolemaic Basilikon Agema and the Praetorians as far as armour points (and price, for that matter) go, though...

and I'll make an "Provincial Imperial First Cohort" to be recruited in some provinces outside Italy (part of Spain, Africa, Illyria, Pannonia, Belgica, Asia) with model using Lorica Squamata (lamellar armor).

Squamata was scale armour though. Pretty sure the Romans didn't use much lamellar, except maybe occasionally on cavalry and even that more in later times.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Some scholars even have suggested the possibility of LS being a ceremonial or dress armour (hence the concern for storage properties as you probably wouldn't worry about storing something that you wear often). LS has been found at military posts believed to have auxiliary units assigned primarily (the line legions wouldn't have been the only ones to get inspected, right?). History is at times a mystery.

One theory is detachments of legionary artillary in border forts. There have been recent finds of tinned and silvered LS which adds weight to a quasi-ceremonial/barracks only usage.

In the 19th Century British soldiers wore stiff leather stocks around their necks to keep their heads up, once out on campaign they tended to go "missing".

[Darth Stalin]

Well, these leather stocks were also used by US military, mostly the marines (thus, AFAIK, their nickname "Leathernecks") and - AFAIK - their purpose was not only to "keep the head up" bu also to protect the neck and neck vains against blade cuts during fight against enemy using edged weapons, like bayonet or cavalryman with sabre.
Of course these stocks were not very pleased in wearing, thus the tendence of making them "missing" when on campaign...

Squamata was scale armour though. Pretty sure the Romans didn't use much lamellar

Yep, my mistake. I wonder why I'm keen on writing about one type of the armour while thinking about the second one, though...

[Intranetusa]

However, the armor was used widespread only during the period of 1st-2nd centuries CE."

lol I actually inputed that info a while back.

Many seasons ago I posted a topic that also asked about the lorica segementa. After learning about Roman armors in detail and how overrated the LS is, I had to redeem myself somehow...so I turned to wikipedia. :D

[Darth Stalin]

Well, in fact I also wondered, how REALLY widespread was the use of LS even at the peak of its popularity. Reading some book on that I found that authors suggested that LS was more expensive than chain mail (hamata) or scale armour (squamata) and thus not so popular as it may seem. And with many civil wars in 3rd cent., when there was a need to make up fresh, large armies (by each contesting party) with armour to be delivered quick and for low price, the LS was abandoned.
Of course in the popular view the LS remains the symbol of a Roman Legionary, maybe due to reenactors and their impressive pictures...

Anyway, for me the Legio would be not so "Roman" without ever a small view of LS somewhere, in a corner, but still... present... :D
And this NOT to say to EB "guys, you were wrong!" but rather "heh, I'm so keen on popular imagination of Roman legionary that I'll try to put somewhere a Roman unit wearing LS, even if this is not-so-much-historical".

[Intranetusa]

Thanks to Hollywood, the LS has a huge myth and misconception behind it. :/

[QuintusSertorius]

My mind boggles at why this is such an obsessional totem for a hardcore of people playing the game. Why does it matter? They weren't armoured in that way in the period covered by the game (and it's not even clear that it was regular armour), so just accept it and drive on.

[Darth Stalin]

Well, maybe this is because such a view of a Roman soldier has been so widespread sewn amongst millions of people watching hundreds of movies located "somewhere, sometime" in Roman world... and with all these legionaries wearing LS...
Well, only in the latest HBO production - "Rome" I could see Roman soldiers armoured in a proper way - in chainmails...

[QuintusSertorius]

Well, maybe this is because such a view of a Roman soldier has been so widespread sewn amongst millions of people watching hundreds of movies located "somewhere, sometime" in Roman world... and with all these legionaries wearing LS...
Well, only in the latest HBO production - "Rome" I could see Roman soldiers armoured in a proper way - in chainmails...

Interestingly, there's docu-film a series that used a lot of the sets (and actors) from Rome called Ancient Rome: Rise and Fall of an Empire, which was pretty good on that front. We saw actual Polybian troops when they were dealing with Gracchus, when dealing with Caesar everyone was wearing mail, and even the ones about Nero and Vespasian had a fair few men in mail as well as plate.

[Darth Stalin]

Hmmm... what production was that docu-film? And in what TV-station has it been released? (maybe Discovery or Viasat History?)

[QuintusSertorius]

Hmmm... what production was that docu-film? And in what TV-station has it been released? (maybe Discovery or Viasat History?)

BBC, which is unsurprising given they co-produced Rome with HBO. I was playing a mildly amusing game of spot the actor from Rome playing a different part in this series.

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

BBC, which is unsurprising given they co-produced Rome with HBO. I was playing a mildly amusing game of spot the actor from Rome playing a different part in this series.

I believe the Marcellus from the Doc was Cato from Rome.

also, when did you see it because I saw it almost or possibly more than a year ago on the History Channel.

[J.Alco]

Well then perhaps (in order to stick to historical authenticity and please LS fans in some way) why not create a simple, small mini-mod that gives siege weapon operators LS armour and Roman Legionary helmets? I've heard that there's evidence that suggests that LS was first given to siege weapon crews and given how the Roman army was becoming more uniform by this point their looking more like Legionaries wouldn't be too out of the ordinary.