Ultimate Turkey!

[Kalt]

I started a campaign as Turks/early/expert and wanted to see how far I could get in 40 turns. It is now turn 40 and I have taken as far as cordoba in the west, and as far as Poland-Hungary-Serbia in the east.

The only things I do not own are the territories east/north of Cordoba and west of Poland/Hungary.

I was able to accomplish this by taking my time and micromanaging effectively, getting as many saracen infantry as possible (Ive been making at least 4 per turn since I was capable of it around turn 15 or so), and in the early game using alot of horse archers.

I didn't cheat in any way, earned alot of money by ransoming Egypt's king 2 times and the Byz king 3 times, and have only destroyed the Novgorod and Egyptian factions.

I have the save game of course, and I can show SS if someone tells me how to post them. I really want to know how fast other people are able to expand so I can tell if Ive really got the campaign game down or not.

Oh and despite 'rushing' I build in every province in every turn, so Im sure I have more of an 'empire' than any non-rusher. I also have about a dozen ships in the water and Alims covering most of the world.

Dont bother flaming, Im not posting this because Im trying to brag. I really want to hear from other people who like to challenge themselves on campaign mode and see how fast they can win.

[andrewt]

It's really amazing how the desert countries have really nice farmland compared to the rest of Europe. Egypt, Turkey and Byzantium could keep attacking while building buildings nonstop in the early game while transitioning to ships.

As Almohads, I'm around turn 50 and I've retained my border with Egypt but conquered the Iberian peninsula up to France, leaving Aquitaine as the only English continental holding and conquering a few German territories. I had trouble building territories in some provinces at times but I now have some sort of a trade empire. Iberian peninsula trade goods aren't that good.

Hi Kalt,

I salute your ability. I'm begining to think I suck mightily at this game. I completed one campaign on easy as the English and mostly it was easy, but I'd wanted to figure out the techtree, how the game played, etc.

Feeling semi big and bad, I started a game as the Egyptians (using the 1092 mod on hard). Had my hands full dealing with my "allies" the Turks for a bit (they attacked), then had a French crusade show up. Dealt with that and was feeling pretty much OK about how I was doing. I wasn't doing great, but I could do a little better than 1:1 kills, say 1.5:1. Yeah, like I said, not great.

My army is still relatively low tech, mostly nubians, peasants (had to mobilize a lot of troops early when the Turks stabbed me) and some Saracens, with a smattering of Desert Archers Saharan cav and various heavy cav (Arm, Mams and Ghulams).

Now, the point of this post: I was really trying NOT to be at war, so I could build up my coffers and tech in peace ... but NO! The Byz, after having beaten the Turks back to 2 provinces (Greece and Anatolia--Turks started it) decided to whack on me.

RUN AWAAAAAY! RUN AWAAAAAY! Kataphractoi! RRUN AWAAAAAAAAAAY!

Geez. Went in with 2 to one odds and a 6 general (theirs was a 6 or 7) and chose autoresolve. Ow, ow, OW! Lost 500 men of 900, they lost 250 of 500. It wasn't my best army, but it was a good one, with several DA, several Nubians, some UM and various cav.

Feeling a certain level of panic, I attacked Anatolia (which was now Byz) with my best army (4 DA, 2 Saracens, 2 UM, 2 Muwahids, 2 Arm cav, 2 Ghul BG, 2 Mamluks, 6 general) and won, managing nto to get too beat up. I outnumbered them 5 to 1 and fought the battle myself. They had no Kats. The plan was to damage them enough that they would lay off.

Next turn they jumped into that province and I met my first Kats, one of which was the general. They had a boatload of naptha throwers, 2 Kats, Byz inf, 1 xbow and I don't remember what else in the first wave.

I just could NOT kill the Kats. They routed unit after unit, even when I was charging them sides and rear. My King finally routed and there were still 7-8 Kats left in the generals unit and 5-6 in the other, with no sign of them even wavering the entire time.

So, how did you take on the Byzantines? I'd really like to hear about your force mix and any special tactics, besides the obvious flanking.

I just feel completely outclassed. TIA.


Oh for a nuke now that Byzantines are here,
V'ger gone

[Paladin]

V'ger, your continued testing of the 1092 campaign is excellent. From what you've said, it seems the mod is serving the purpose of being harder to play than the 1087 campaign.

By the way, did you have a chance to update the changes regarding the "Feudal Knights"?

[Osbot]

Ive been playing the 1092 mod exclusively.

Few things I can say.

Left to the AI, the spanish wipe out the almos very quickly. Turky and Egypt duke it out to become the "temp" super power.

What happens generally after this is...Turkey begins fighting Byz as well, after getting the initial leg up on Egypt. Spain tears into Egypt from the rear, and Egypt slowly crumbles. Byz keeps the Turks weak, untill Spain plows into the Turks from behind.

Spain has in about 6 campaigns, with me playing european factions, ended up pushing up through constantinople and most of russia.

Spain takes on the "Hojo" roll if left to their own devices in 1092. If the played ties up spain, then either Egypt or Turkey finish each other off, and then begin to dominate.

I also find, the spanish to be a much more dangerous hojo than the Almos ;p

My recent campaign, I played the Almos, and had a hell of a time with the jinettes, eventually I finished off the spanish. However Egypt had finally put down the Turks, and were pushing into europe having cast the Byz into the sea, and owning almost the entire eastern half of the map ;p

[hrvojej]

V'ger, I've noticed you didin't use any horse archers against the Byzantines. I found them to be the key of getting rid of the Kats. If they decide to chase, they'll never catch up, slow speed means that you can get several volleys before the HA fall back, and you'll exhaust them easily. If they don't, well, just stand on the flanks and shoot your heart out, plus they'll get morale penalties due to your units being on their flanks. I always use the mobility of the muslim armies to beat the heavily armoured opponents. Often when I used several HA (4-5), the Byz would withdraw after some serious peppering and before engaging my main force (this was on hard).

[This message has been edited by hrvojej (edited 10-13-2002).]

[Kalt]

A few tips on how to handle the early game (on expert):

#1 You must build border forts, then a fort, then the level 1 town watch building. After that, it depends on what direction you want to take things. You should designate at least 3 provinces to rush ships. At least 3-4 should rush troops (and produce them every turn). Your MOST developed (starting) province should rush spies, unless you do not want to play with them. Eventually, you'll want to build Keeps and Mosques in every province at the least, as well as 40% farming and a Merchant unless their have horrible farm income (like sinai and arabia).

#2 At the very beginning, horse archers are the best troops turkey gets. They can make a huge difference in early battles by singling out the enemy general and hopefully killing him.

#3 You'll want to build Horse Archers / Spearmen / Camels, in that priority, in every province ASAP. The more troops the better! You'll need every man you can get to quickly defeat Egypt and then take the fight to the Byz.

#4 Never go into battle with a general less than rank 4, do everything in your power to ensure that your armies are led by rank 6+ generals. In my game, my heir was rank 5 and my king was rank 4, and that is who I used at the beginning, as well as the starting general you get in Syria. That guy always had 'skilled attacker' and if you give him governorship of Rum he gets another +1 command, for a total of +2. I always send this man through egypt and clear to cordoba, which is a nice single border to stop at.

#5 I didnt know about this, so I didnt do it in my game, but it appears emissaries improve province loyalty significantly (I think they eliminate the distance to king penalty) so you will be greatly benefitted by having 1 in every province.

#6 On turn 1, get all the troops you can into Syria. On turn 2, split them into 2 armies, one headed by your king, the other by the governor of Rum, and send your king to Tripoli and your governor to Palestine. On turn 3, your king attacks north to antioch to capture the enemy king isolated there, while your general attacks Sinai to cut off the enemy troops in Arabia. BAM hello to over 10k in ransom. NOW the egyptian king is returned........ to Arabia! Cut off again! On turn 4 or 5 (depending if you have enough troops ready to attack him) attack him again and capture him a second time for another ransom, then strike at Egypt itself and don't stop until you reach cordoba. Try to win battles with less than 1/2 the troops of the enemy to improve your Rum-gov's 'skilled attacker' virtue, it will help against the Almos.

#7 I made syria and palestine (and then egypt and constantinople) rush ships, while arabia rushed religious units. By turn 40 I had 4 provinces producing ships and about 15 provinces producing Alims (muslim priests). I left my King in Syria early on then moved him to Antioch. You should build ports and mosques in EVERY province if you can.

#8 My original 4 starting provinces all rushed saracen infantry, Rum got them within 10 turns, the others got them in 20 turns (4fort+2townwatch+2spear+8keep+4spear). Once you get these troops, you need to make them every turn and eliminate the spearmen in your frontline armies. Spearmen can be used to subjugate Novgorod and the Pagan northeast, but it is very difficult to use spearmen to beat other factions armies unless you have a great general.

#9 The best way to beat the Byz is to cut off their insanely powerful generals from the bulk of their troops (if possible), to do all you can to kill their general in battle if forced to face one of their disgustingly powerful princes, or to rely on massive numerical superiority and constantly attack every province that is lightly defended and withdraw if a huge Byz army shows up. Horse archers are still the best to kill their Kataphractoi, but blocking them with a spearman unit on hold them hitting them in the rear with berber camels isnt too bad either. If you kill their general, make sure you use those horse archers and berber camels to capture almost every last man that flees, and KILL THEM ALL. You NEED to cature and slaughter everyone because if you do not, youll be seeing them yet again, this time commanded by another powerful 6+ star prince. If you can manage just one victory where you can slaughter 600+ prisoners, you will have broken the back of their armies and should be able to roll over Constantinople.

#10 Build alot of troops, even when you dont need them, even build peasants. This is to get as many good governors as you can, and it is alot cheaper to build 5 extra peasant units and disband them every turn than it is to go without 4-acumen governors at the least in every province. Building alot of troops will give you alot more options to choose from, and sometimes you'll even be blessed with those massive acumen-boosting virtues (or even some vices!) giving your governor an acumen of 7, 8, or even 9! You NEED a few of these who can be given title to antioch, egypt, constantinople, rum, and tripoli. Later on youll want great governors in hungary and poland.

#11 Build in every province in every turn (unless you think youll lose the province). It gets your king and governors helpful virtues, and it develops your economy and your troop quality. If you are EVER in the red, you are wrong. In my game I started out about 2k in the black, and that increased over time to about 10k a turn, and at turn 40 Im making about 20k a turn profit even without any trade! The key is to not build a ton of troops that sit around and do nothing. Keep provinces under threat of a re-emergence over 130% and everyone else over 100%. If you do have too many troops, disband them or provoke rebellions that your surplus troops can put down for profit.

I hope this was helpful!

[TenkiSoratoti]

true, horse archers re lethal in singlelayer mini battles

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"The good fighters of the old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an oppurtunity to defeat the enemy."

[Goodridge]

Thanks for the tips. I'm working on the same campaign right now.

How were you getting 20k per turn without any trade at that point in the game? Had you taken both Egypt and Constantinople by that point?

I'll have to try a few of the things you mentioned. Thanks.



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Kyle Goodridge

[Kalt]

Yes, to get 20k a turn, I had taken from cordoba clear across africa and the middle east, past contantinople. Basically the only things I dont control are whatever is west of poland/hungary and east/north of cordoba.

Egypt and Antioch and Const are all making over 1k a turn thanks to govs with acumen like 7+.

[Paladin]

Osbot:

Quote Ive been playing the 1092 mod exclusively.
Few things I can say.

Left to the AI, the spanish wipe out the almos very quickly. Turky and Egypt duke it out to become the "temp" super power.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the feedback. It surprises me that you are seeing the Almohads struggling in the 1092 game because in the 1092 I'm playing, the Almo's smashed the hell out of the Spanish and if it weren't for the French, they would have fisted them into Gaul.

Which brings us to one the more current update, "no more link from Flanders to Wessex." I found that it was unhistorical and it was far too easy for the French to wipe out the English. Now, the English can raid the French coastline and give the English enough time to become a European powerhouse.

Then, the next update fixed the lack of Feudal Knights in what is generally known as the Feudal Age. Now, you can build Feudal Knights right away as is historcially accurate.

Please download the updates.

[Rosacrux]

Probably this ain't the right place, but ...what the heck. I've downloaded Paladin's mod and then did some modding myself: I left each and every playable faction with one single province!

Then, I proceeded into balancing the factions a tad (I failed that, in 3 time playtesting, Frenchies and Germans get eliminated very soon and the byzantines seem way too strong) and added some units/buildings to the rebel provinces.

Play it on Expert and it's actually the empire builder's dream. It takes time, though, to build up from scratch, so I might consider into doing some time-frame tweaking (allthough that would leave us with no GA... I love GA and with this mod it's actually hard to get them points).

Thoughts?

[maroule]

the only real 'ultimate turkey' is 'Driven', the movie of Silvester Stalone, and I didn't see any janissaries in it.

so stop bragging

Hi,

Well, after trying the Byz in a campaign to see if I was incompetent, I went back to Egypt. After playing the Byzantines it became obvious that I was OK, but my troops sucked.

Then I figured out a solution: armor piercing. I had taken Georgia, as it had only a prince and 8 guys and no fort (who still killed 158 of my men) and it had an inn.

Taking my large warchest in hand, I bought every merc there, including a mangonel (YIPPPEEEE, it's 1139 and a long time before I'll be able to build on) several other units and 2 horse xbows. Then I took that force and invaded Trebizon.

Oh my, what a difference! I wouldn't have lost anyone if I could have kept my other troops away from the Kats. So, now I'm building xbows as fast as I can and working on being able to build HXBs. I'm also shifting from Arm HC to Mamluks for their AP abilities.

I've taken Nicea, Treb and Georgia and have sent a Jihad to Con. I held Con for one turn, but had to leave because I couldn't hold it with what troops were left after taking it.

Unfortunately, I probably won't get Con, since a larger Turkish force (remember they revolted on Byz?) ran in the turn after I left. But at least if the Turks have it the Byz don't, so I won't see hordes of Kats again. (Well, it seems like hordes, though it's usually 2 per stack and never over 4. )

France is going ape and is at war with Spain, England and somebody else. The Elmos are just sitting there.

When I auto resolve the Byz kill at least 2.5 to one, sometimes as much as 4 to 1. When I fight it out, it's usually 1:1 or 1.5:1, a big improvement. That's without any AP units.

Man these guys are tough. I love it.


Once more unto the Kataphractoi,
V'ger gone

[Cheetah]

PAF