Phalanxes in version 1.1

[Watchman]

The phalangites are actually armoured entirely WYSIWYG - if the troopers wear the same kit as say the Thureophoroi, they get the same armour value. Basta. It's the shield, defense skill and weapon attack values (and to a degree the mass score) where special modifiers apply to all phalanx units.

We have units fighting unhistorically, Hoplites included.

The Hops and other "standard" shieldwall types work well enough with the combination of relatively high mass values, very dense formation and judicious application of the guardmode which makes them actually *keep* that damn formation. And when it gets down to it, they're just spear- and swordsmen only in particularly close order, and should be treated accordingly.

The issue here is the "pseudo-phalanx" units that in essence were proto-pikemen. The phalanx special formation, which indeed did perform appropriately enough in straight combat, however also made them far too tactically cumbersome (dare we say "sitting ducks" ? I've myself made mincemeat out of AI Mori Gaesum with quite humble troops by exploiting that clumsiness) in a quite inappropriate fashion, especially when steered by the hapless AI.
Ergo, bye bye phalanx formation.
This restored the appropriate tactical maneuverability and flexibility, but duly created the current problem of how to represent their "spearwall" tactics and its certain benefits.

Anyway, to return to the "radius" issue, reducing it from 0.4 to 0.2 would seem like a potentially rather major modification - 50%, after all. But, on the other hand, would the effects of 0.3 be too subtle to be meaningful ?

I've also been doing some hard staring at the modifiers that used to be applied to these "spear phalanxes" before they lost that formation. Without going into excessive detail, they used to have a more noticeable bonus to the attack score and a higher lethality than regular spears gave, and OTOH added rather a lot more noticeably to the unit cost too. Something could probably be made out of that, but how exactly to do it without doing something indecent to unit balance is another question.

And then there's the issue of secondary weapons. Not a big deal with the xiphos/sica guys (whose sec weapons can be deleted out of hand and only good things can come out of it - the same was done with the short swords of the Speutagardaz, and the result was found good), but the longsword/axe types are a bit bigger headache. Then again, it's the engine; you just have to live with its quirks.

[Phalanx300]

Guard mode is far from a good solution.

It makes your units fight worse then that they are supposed though, I tested it quite alot. Without it I always got better results, its only good for letting your men be alive a little longer, however its just a matter of time before they loose.

And what is even more annoying is that only a part of the army is using Guardmode . Using radius will also make a end to that problem, and it makes the units fight better and more realistic then in guard mode. Guard mode are just static blocks of men, far from a shieldwall formation.

And may I remind you, Hoplites aren't just ordinary spear or sword units. Shieldwall is quite a different formation the usual individual combat. Its like saying the Phalangites are just ordinary spearmen as well. They weren't and didn't fight as such.

And if Hoplites get stronger if given a smaller radius(which is Historical since the second row could strike at the front, it wasn't just the first soldier on its own against a enemy) then it doesn't mean all other units have to be changed, the Hoplites can be given a weaker attack or a lower morale.



Also, any news on a future change on the lenght of the Hoplite spear(half of the units have the wrong lenght)?

[antisocialmunky]

Guard mode is better for the main line IMHO. You want to A) not die and B) weaken the enemy. If you don't order them to attack in guard, they lose little stamina per unit time.

[Novellus]

I realized today how useful the Thorakitai Hoplitai are with their kopis swords and the AP that comes with them. The missing length on the spears were a hinderance when it came to holding a battle line. But when I used their secondary swords as weapons rather than the default spear, I noticed that they were in a sense more effective than the Thorakitai Hellenic Spearmen. They were excellent flankers and were surprisingly useful as swordsmen, especially since the Hellenes lack any assault-type units.

The thing that bothered me though was how much weaker the Iphikratous Hoplitai fared. As mentioned earlier, they fared decently against cavalry units and managed to hold the line to a degree. But their spears still don't show any advancement in offense as a compensation for a lack of armor in comparison to the Classical Hoplitai they were meant to replace.

If I can find a way to give the units back their "pseudo-phalanxes", I'll probably stop complaining.

Still, it'd be nice to have some sort of reason from the EB team as to why the changes were made.

[NeoSpartan]

hoplites were simple sword and spear guys... just like a whole bunch of others who fought the same way.
(btw... C. Hopites used to have swords back when .8 came out, but it was taken away in .81x as they were always switching to swords and it just didn't represent the "C. Hoplite" description well. But for guys like Hypaspistai the swords were left on)

As for why C. Hoplites in EB are stronger than Iphikratous Hoplitai, it was just explanied here that the Iphikratous Hoplitai have lighter equipment. Thus cheaper to make and allowing for more people to be armed and put to fight.
--You gotta remember, Hoplites (as well as many others) provided their own gear, so the more gear a soldier is wearing is because he has more $$$. And in EB Classical Hoplites represent rather well off citizens who armed themselves and fought in the usual Greek way of fighting (ei: hoplite phalanx).

In addition, it was already explained that Iphikratous Hoplitai, Aplines, Helvetti, etc were a more flexible fighting force than Pezetaroi and other pikemen. And unfortunatly the RTW engine only has one phalanx animation, which represents pikemen decently well, but other units like Iphikratous, hoplites, and others who made shieldwall type formations are not represented so well.

[mcantu]

After discussing this with Aradan, I have begun using 0.2 radius for all hoplites/phalangites in upcoming RTR mods. My suggestion to EB would be to do the same for those types of units but also remove the artificial +4 attack added to spear units since the attribute that gives the spear unit attack penalty was removed prior to 1.0

[Phalanx300]

A good choice, its really the best option.

Its either vanilla Phalanx which is unhistorical.

Guard mode, which has to many bad side effects.

Short_Pike, which also has to many bad side effect.

Smaller radius, like 0.2 for Hoplites. Which basicly has no side effect I can think off, other then Hoplites fight better then ordinary spearmen, but seeing that they fought in a shieldwall its quite logical.

Anyways, I really hope that EB will also use it as all other mods.