Phalanxes in version 1.1

[antisocialmunky]

That's not true about how the engine handles combat. Length makes no difference ... neither does girth but that's a seperate discussion.

[Aper]

That's not true about how the engine handles combat. Length makes no difference ...

That is not entirely true: units in phalanx formation (in game I mean) gain longer spears (even without "long_pike") that actually have a great effect on the performance.

They made enough of a difference in that they allowed what had until rather recently been psiloi skirmisher rabble to check and hold even elite hoplites, though... which in turn allowed the Maks' formidable cavalry to do their part which was more or less the whole point.

You are right: until recently. But this means absolutely nothing, because since Philip II this so-called rabble are in fact highly trained professionists of war, like the fancy Spartans that everyone seems to admire so much (I really wonder why..but this is enirely another matter) ; the so-called elite hoplites, on the contrary, were often no more trained than the nasty barbarians they despised so much, or at best they had 2 years of ephebate, really nothing compared to the skill of the pezethairoi

The Iphikratean reformed hoplites were probably highly professional mercenaries (he had a lot of experience in commanding mercenaries and probably he was well aware of the importance of training, an awareness not so common in 4° BC greece)

Last thing to add: the heavy armor had largely disappeared in 4° BC greece even among classical hoplites

To reassume:

on one side we have classical amateur or little trained hoplites armed with a metal helmet, a big shield, light armor and a classic spear

On the other, firstly with Iphikratean, then with Pezethaeroi, we have highly trained professionist that had smaller shield but a longer weapon, more effective both in defending and in attacking. They were vulnerable to flanking? True, but no classical hoplite had enough training to outflank effectively without losing every resemblance of formation (that in RTW is negligible ; in RL IS VERY BAD)

Were pezethairoi superheroes and was the pike a bartix weapon? NO, but on average they were largely more effective than classical hoplites and their weapons.
If you still don't believe me, think on this: all the 3 greatest general of ancient greece (Iphikrates, Epaminondas, Philip II) increased the lenght of the spear of their soldiers: oh, but surely they were all dumb... (sorry for the tone but I had to be a bit sarcastic )

EDIT: one last thing: the heavy (and in 4° BC this is debatable too...) makedonian cavalry was so important and effective in a pike vs. spear struggle that Antigonid kings, who largely faced hoplitic armies, regarded cavalry mainly as an auxiliary weapon, and still more often than not defeated greeks, giving Romans the excuse to land in greece to "free " them. I think this is to take in account too.

[Watchman]

Uh-huh.
Armour indeed went out of fashion among hoplites around the Peloponnesian War... and then came back into fashion. IIRC, in a somewhat heavier kit than previously too.

Around the same time hoplites (and other Greek soldiery) were also increasingly becoming full-time paid professionals if not outright mercenaries, and of course the elite formations (epilektoi) quite a few of the major communities had over the years - the most famous likely being the Theban Sacred Band - were naturally very well equipped and highly trained.

So meh.

[antisocialmunky]

I think that the successful Macedonian interventions in Greece proper was more due to organization an man power... I mean, look at the 3rd-4th century political alliances. You have the Aetolian League that was by itself. You have the Achean League that was allied with Macedon. You have Sparta that always tried to march north and attack the Achaeans. You have the later alliance of Athens, Sparta, and some other states funded by the Ptolemies. I mean, if you look at the records, usually the what happened was that many of the anti-Macedon groups had initial success but got plastered once the Macedonians or its allies organized and showed up in force.

[Aper]

Uh-huh.
Armour indeed went out of fashion among hoplites around the Peloponnesian War... and then came back into fashion. IIRC, in a somewhat heavier kit than previously too.

Around the same time hoplites (and other Greek soldiery) were also increasingly becoming full-time paid professionals if not outright mercenaries, and of course the elite formations (epilektoi) quite a few of the major communities had over the years - the most famous likely being the Theban Sacred Band - were naturally very well equipped and highly trained.

So meh.

Heavier than the old fashioned full bronze armor? I'm a little skeptical about this...
I don't know much about classical hoplites of 3° BC, I thought they were largely disappeared from battlefields ; if you can tell me some sources on the matter I'll be glad to learn myself.
However, I don't remember any greek power in 4° and 3° BC that could deploy entire armies of well-armored and well-trained men... and few hundreds of epilektoi couldn't match the professional army of the Maks (who had their own elites anyway).
According to EB the greeks in 3° trained their men in the Makedonian manner, even the spartans, I can't think any better evidence of the superiority of the sarissa on the old glorious dory... even without the support of good cavalry,that in greece traditionally was scarce.

Back on topic, in my games I noticed only a slight advantage for tweaked units against vanilla ones : it seems strange to me that a little radius reduction makes a unit overpowered... I think it's better to test a little more, maybe giving units a radius reduction based on morale to portrait the different level of training, as I suggested. However, as you can probably imagine, I think Iphikratean should perform well against Classicals, not slaughter them, but winning more than not is in order IMO (obviously if they have similar protections and morale)

[antisocialmunky]

They would win if you could increase the effective range of Iphs. However, you can't do that short of phalanx mode on the TW engine....

EDIT

However, if you could use something that prevents enemies from attacking like knockback, that might work:

If you had a high attack unit with low lethality and fast attack, and you stick the unit in guard mode to keep formation then that might work. Really, that's actually pretty much what the phalanx is, fast attacking, low lethality pushing thing that uses knockback and mass.

It would probably be overpowered though.

[NeoSpartan]

....
However, if you could use something that prevents enemies from attacking like knockback, that might work:

If you had a high attack unit with low lethality and fast attack, and you stick the unit in guard mode to keep formation then that might work. Really, that's actually pretty much what the phalanx is, fast attacking, low lethality pushing thing that uses knockback and mass.

It would probably be overpowered though.

hum... you might be on to something there munky

[Watchman]

Faster attacks are a "no can do", at least without going to mess around with the animations which I sure don't know how to do. I can test the knockback idea, although I expect the results to be right strange...